[aconite]

I'm referring to R&H Personality Types excerpts, which can be found online - they draw parallels between certain Enneatypes and Jungian functions (based on Jung's Psychological Types, not MBTI). I put the quotes from Jung in spoiler tags, since some are fairly long (it's noted, however, that Jung's descriptions were often unclear).

Type One - extroverted thinking

 

This type of man elevates objective reality, or an objectively oriented intellectual formula, into the ruling principle not only for himself but for his whole environment. By this formula good and evil are measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. Everything that agrees with this formula is right, everything that contradicts it is wrong.... Because this formula seems to embody the entire meaning of life, it is made into a universal law which must be put into effect everywhere all the time, both individually and collectively. Just as the extroverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for their own good, everybody round him must obey it too, for whoever refuses to obey it is wrong—he is resisting the universal law, and is therefore unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must under all circumstances be realized.... This is not from any great love of his neighbor, but from the higher standpoint of justice and truth.... 'Oughts' and 'musts' bulk large in this programme. If the formula is broad enough, this type may play a very useful role in social life as a reformer or public prosecutor or purifier of conscience.... But the more rigid the formula, the more he develops into a martinet, a quibbler, and a prig, who would like to force himself and others into one mould. Here we have the two extremes between which the majority of these types move.

Type Two - extroverted feeling

 

Depending on the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of self-disunity will become clearly apparent, because the originally compensatory attitude of the unconscious has turned into open opposition. This shows itself first of all in extravagant displays of feeling, gushing talk, loud expostulations, etc., which ring hollow: 'The lady doth protest too much.' It is at once apparent that some kind of resistance is being over-compensated, and one begins to wonder whether these demonstrations might not turn out quite different. And a little later they do. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to call forth at once just the opposite pronouncement on the selfsame object.

Type Three - none

Type Four - none

Type Five - introverted thinking

 

Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor....It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins with the subject and leads back to the subject, far though it may range into the realm of actual reality....Facts are collected as evidence for a theory, never for their own sakes.

Type Six - introverted feeling

 

It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it.

Type Seven - extroverted sensation

 

As sensation is chiefly conditioned by the object, those objects that excite the strongest sensations will be decisive for the individual's psychology. The result is a strong sensuous tie to the object....Objects are valued in so far as they excite sensations, and, so far as lies within the power of sensation, they are fully accepted into consciousness whether they are compatible with rational judgments or not. The sole criterion of their value is the intensity of the sensation produced by their objective qualities....

No other human type can equal the extroverted sensation type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects....What he experiences serves at most as a guide to fresh sensations....Sensation for him is a concrete expression of life—it is simply real life lived to the full. His whole aim is concrete enjoyment, and his morality is oriented accordingly.

Type Eight - extroverted intuitive

 

The [extroverted] intuitive...has a keen nose for anything new and in the making. Because he is always seeking out new possibilities, stable conditions suffocate him....Neither reason nor feeling can restrain him or frighten him away from a new possibility, even though it goes against all his previous convictions... Consideration for the welfare of others is weak. Their psychic well-being counts as little with him as does his own. He has equally little regard for their convictions and way of life, and on this account he is often put down as an immoral and unscrupulous adventurer. Since his intuition is concerned with externals and with ferreting out their possibilities, he readily turns to professions in which he can exploit these capacities to the full. Many business tycoons, entrepreneurs, speculators, stockbrokers, politicians, etc., belong to this type...



It goes without saying that such a type is uncommonly important both economically and culturally. If his intentions are good, i.e., if his attitude is not too egocentric, he can render exceptional service as the initiator or promoter of new enterprises. He is the natural champion of all minorities with a future. Because he is able, when oriented more to people than to things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and potentialities, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire courage or to kindle enthusiasm for anything new is unrivalled, although he may already have dropped it by the morrow. The stronger his intuition, the more his ego becomes fused with all the possibilities he envisions. He brings his vision to life, he presents it convincingly and with dramatic fire, he embodies it, so to speak. But this is not play-acting, it is a kind of fate.

Type Nine - introverted sensation

 

...he may be conspicuous for his calmness and passivity, or for his rational self-control [especially, for example, if the Nine has a One-wing]. This peculiarity, which often leads a superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all...

Seen from the outside, it looks as though the effect of the object did not penetrate into the subject at all. This impression is correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious and intercept the effect of the object. The intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to be shielding himself directly from all objective influences... If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perception... Such action has an illusory character unrelated to objective reality and is extremely disconcerting. It instantly reveals the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type. But when the influence of the object does not break through completely, it is met with well-intentioned neutrality, disclosing little sympathy yet constantly striving to soothe and adjust. The too low is raised a little, the too high is lowered, enthusiasm is damped down, extravagance restrained, and anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula—all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. In this way the type becomes a menace to his environment because his total innocuousness is not altogether above suspicion. In that case he easily becomes a victim of the aggressiveness and domineeringness of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused and then take their revenge on the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled obtuseness and stubbornness.

So, do you agree or disagree? While some connections seem much or less obvious (2 and 5 especially), other don't make sense to me in some aspects (for example, Jung calls extroverted sensation type the most realistic, while I wouldn't say the same thing about 7s). Anyway, feel free to contribute :)

[Arrow]

Why couldn't 4 be Fi and 3 Fe?

[FreeBeer]

Why couldn't 4 be Fi and 3 Fe?

That would account for the annoyingly whiny vibe the INFP forums have..bleh. I'm a strong Fi Ne Te Si user and I'm a 6. I do have E4 in my tritype thou and did mistype as a 4 in the beginning.

Problem is that in the enneagram the motivation counts and not the behavior. Many ppl just look at the behavior description and don't go through the painful process of introspecting about their motivations.

What your subconscious motivation, what you fixation in life is...does not correlate with functions or MBTI types. The very idea of it is ridiculous. We are comparing apples and oranges.

Oddly enough OP's post is the truth in my case.

[Wake]

1s may correlate to a Te way of thinking, but I'm pretty sure there are a lot more 8's and 3's who are EXTJ than 1s, though supposedly have Te-dom. I try to not take the stuff too seriously.

I enjoyed the writings though and fully agree with the POV you expressed for at least the 1.

[Svidrigailov]

I'm referring to R&H Personality Types excerpts, which can be found online - they draw parallels between certain Enneatypes and Jungian functions (based on Jung's Psychological Types, not MBTI). I put the quotes from Jung in spoiler tags, since some are fairly long (it's noted, however, that Jung's descriptions were often unclear).

Type One - extroverted thinking

 

This type of man elevates objective reality, or an objectively oriented intellectual formula, into the ruling principle not only for himself but for his whole environment. By this formula good and evil are measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. Everything that agrees with this formula is right, everything that contradicts it is wrong.... Because this formula seems to embody the entire meaning of life, it is made into a universal law which must be put into effect everywhere all the time, both individually and collectively. Just as the extroverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for their own good, everybody round him must obey it too, for whoever refuses to obey it is wrong—he is resisting the universal law, and is therefore unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must under all circumstances be realized.... This is not from any great love of his neighbor, but from the higher standpoint of justice and truth.... 'Oughts' and 'musts' bulk large in this programme. If the formula is broad enough, this type may play a very useful role in social life as a reformer or public prosecutor or purifier of conscience.... But the more rigid the formula, the more he develops into a martinet, a quibbler, and a prig, who would like to force himself and others into one mould. Here we have the two extremes between which the majority of these types move.

Type Two - extroverted feeling

 

Depending on the degree of dissociation between the ego and the momentary state of feeling, signs of self-disunity will become clearly apparent, because the originally compensatory attitude of the unconscious has turned into open opposition. This shows itself first of all in extravagant displays of feeling, gushing talk, loud expostulations, etc., which ring hollow: 'The lady doth protest too much.' It is at once apparent that some kind of resistance is being over-compensated, and one begins to wonder whether these demonstrations might not turn out quite different. And a little later they do. Only a very slight alteration in the situation is needed to call forth at once just the opposite pronouncement on the selfsame object.

Type Three - none

Type Four - none

Type Five - introverted thinking

 

Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor....It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins with the subject and leads back to the subject, far though it may range into the realm of actual reality....Facts are collected as evidence for a theory, never for their own sakes.

Type Six - introverted feeling

 

It is extremely difficult to give an intellectual account of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate description of it, although the peculiar nature of this kind of feeling is very noticeable once one has become aware of it.

Type Seven - extroverted sensation

 

As sensation is chiefly conditioned by the object, those objects that excite the strongest sensations will be decisive for the individual's psychology. The result is a strong sensuous tie to the object....Objects are valued in so far as they excite sensations, and, so far as lies within the power of sensation, they are fully accepted into consciousness whether they are compatible with rational judgments or not. The sole criterion of their value is the intensity of the sensation produced by their objective qualities....

No other human type can equal the extroverted sensation type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects....What he experiences serves at most as a guide to fresh sensations....Sensation for him is a concrete expression of life—it is simply real life lived to the full. His whole aim is concrete enjoyment, and his morality is oriented accordingly.

Type Eight - extroverted intuitive

 

The [extroverted] intuitive...has a keen nose for anything new and in the making. Because he is always seeking out new possibilities, stable conditions suffocate him....Neither reason nor feeling can restrain him or frighten him away from a new possibility, even though it goes against all his previous convictions... Consideration for the welfare of others is weak. Their psychic well-being counts as little with him as does his own. He has equally little regard for their convictions and way of life, and on this account he is often put down as an immoral and unscrupulous adventurer. Since his intuition is concerned with externals and with ferreting out their possibilities, he readily turns to professions in which he can exploit these capacities to the full. Many business tycoons, entrepreneurs, speculators, stockbrokers, politicians, etc., belong to this type...

It goes without saying that such a type is uncommonly important both economically and culturally. If his intentions are good, i.e., if his attitude is not too egocentric, he can render exceptional service as the initiator or promoter of new enterprises. He is the natural champion of all minorities with a future. Because he is able, when oriented more to people than to things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and potentialities, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire courage or to kindle enthusiasm for anything new is unrivalled, although he may already have dropped it by the morrow. The stronger his intuition, the more his ego becomes fused with all the possibilities he envisions. He brings his vision to life, he presents it convincingly and with dramatic fire, he embodies it, so to speak. But this is not play-acting, it is a kind of fate.

Type Nine - introverted sensation

 

...he may be conspicuous for his calmness and passivity, or for his rational self-control [especially, for example, if the Nine has a One-wing]. This peculiarity, which often leads a superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all...

Seen from the outside, it looks as though the effect of the object did not penetrate into the subject at all. This impression is correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious and intercept the effect of the object. The intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to be shielding himself directly from all objective influences... If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perception... Such action has an illusory character unrelated to objective reality and is extremely disconcerting. It instantly reveals the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type. But when the influence of the object does not break through completely, it is met with well-intentioned neutrality, disclosing little sympathy yet constantly striving to soothe and adjust. The too low is raised a little, the too high is lowered, enthusiasm is damped down, extravagance restrained, and anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula—all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. In this way the type becomes a menace to his environment because his total innocuousness is not altogether above suspicion. In that case he easily becomes a victim of the aggressiveness and domineeringness of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused and then take their revenge on the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled obtuseness and stubbornness.

So, do you agree or disagree? While some connections seem much or less obvious (2 and 5 especially), other don't make sense to me in some aspects (for example, Jung calls extroverted sensation type the most realistic, while I wouldn't say the same thing about 7s). Anyway, feel free to contribute :)

Type Four is associated with Introverted Intuition in Personality Types.

[Arrow]

Problem is that in the enneagram the motivation counts and not the behavior.

I definitely understand that, but the process that 6 and 4 go threw is very similar. How is 6 Fi, but 4 isn't? Both types have one thing in common it's about self discovery and truthful revelation, either the discovery in others in order to find security (6) or self discovery of the self and valuing your own difference as an individual (4).

What are your values? Are they right? Do they mesh with mine? Are you good or evil? Can you help me... Aren't these all things both 6 and 4's ask of others? I think there is a definite containedness about both of them. 6's see the world as place filled with hidden mine's while 4's see the world as completely different from them. Both can see the world some what negatively for that reason because they are concerned with self concerns. That self oriented-ness leads itself to see the person against the world which could emphasize a Fi usage.

I think both identify the two sides of Fi. They both worry about values and if they are being upheld, either on the outside to view trust worthy character (6) or the inside as a way to make themselves feel different from the others and add dimension to the personality (4). To some extent both want security in their respective fields -- both 4 and 6 want outsiders to help or value them. Yes almost all of these concepts are nebulous in some way but if we are saying 6 is Fi then I don't see why the inherent need/qualities of 4 couldn't mean that same distinction/definition. What makes 6 more prone to Fi usage then 4?

3's ability to adapt and change almost mercurially makes me think of Fe automatically. That may or may not be wrong. I was just trying to fill in the blanks so to speak.

Many ppl just look at the behavior description and don't go through the painful process of introspecting about their motivations.

I also think the problem with E-gram is that the descriptions are so ridiculously negative that it is almost impossible to find your correct type if you are healthy. I know I had many, many problems trying to find my type because I was healthy and I went threw several types thinking I was one type over the other because I felt it didn't fit. The idea that in theory you could have three types at once, six if you combine the wings - and the variants as well makes everything 12 times harder too.

[aconite]

Type Four is associated with Introverted Intuition in Personality Types.

Thank you. I don't own the book, the original post is based on enneagraminstitute.com descriptions. But Three isn't associated with anything, is it?

Anyway, Jung's type descriptions are a bit different from MBTI; for example, extroverted intuitive is an egocentric revolutionary or a shrewd politician, who cares little about other's convictions and explores every possibility.

[Svidrigailov]

Thank you. I don't own the book, the original post is based on enneagraminstitute.com descriptions. But Three isn't associated with anything, is it?

Anyway, Jung's type descriptions are a bit different from MBTI; for example, extroverted intuitive is an egocentric revolutionary or a shrewd politician, who cares little about other's convictions and explores every possibility.

No, it's the only Type which isn't.

[madhatter]

Nice post, @aconite! Of course, there are a lot of introverted thinkers who are 5s (I being one of them!), but I've actually seen ISTPs and INTPs all over the place in terms of Enneagram, 1s, 3s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, and 9s. There are actually just as many ISTP 9s as there are ISTP 5s.

[Kayness]

actually, according to R&H, 4 corresponds with Ni.

IMO I think 4=Ni & 6=Fi should be swapped.