[NaughyChimp]

I've seen this NT/NF "Death Spiral" mentioned on numerous boards here at PerC. I thought it would be useful to have a thread dedicated to discussing it.

For those of you not familiar with this dynamic (I took this quotation from the website NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki), here is the description:
The NT/NF Death Spiral



The general sequence of events is this:
Stage 1: NT meets NF. NF is enamoured of NT, falls head over heels. NT is characteristically cautious, but interested. NFs are fun, after all.
Stage 2: NF appreciates and admires many characteristics of the NT and thus begins to behave more like an NT, perhaps even fooling the NT into thinking s/he is an NT. NT then relaxes, figuring s/he's with a kindred spirit, gets more comfortable with the relationship, starts acting like normal NT self, expecting to be understood.
Stage 3: NF feels NT cooling off and wonders what s/he is doing wrong. Tries to be more like NT to compensate. This doesn't feel right. NF gets needy and/or begins to consider is her/his duty to draw the NT out of her/his shell, encouraging the NT to express all those feelings buried deep inside. NT doesn't get it.
Stage 4: NT feels pressure from NFs emotional demands, needs distance to figure things out. (This might be only INTs. I'm not sure.) NF panics, becomes more needy. NT withdraws more...NF needs more...and so on and so on.
Stage 5: NF suddenly realizes that the reason things aren't working is that the NT is cold and unfeeling or not nurturing or some other horrible thing. Abandons NT without looking back. (This is especially likely with the NFPs.) NT is confused and (sometimes) relieved.

Do you believe this phenomenon exists? Have you ever experienced it? What do you believe that both parties could do to avoid it... or is it an inevitable dynamic between NFs & NTs? I'm curious to hear from any NTs or NFs.

[Matt Cork]

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Both people have to work at it. It's not even just NF's. SF's do the same thing. I just stopped dating an ISFJ and this is exactly how it played out. I got comfortable and started being myself and she just wanted more attention. I guess I didn't give her enough of it. But the cycle started and she kept getting more needy and wanting more attention and it just made me withdraw more and more. I get it, you're emotional and need someone to tell you how awesome you are all the time, but I'm the opposite so I'm sorry you don't always get your way like you want. Honestly part of me sees it as a weakness to have to need attention from other people. Reminded me of all the attention whores in High School.

4. It depends on the two people. There might be an NF or an NT that is borderline something else and they can deal with it or maybe an NT is more emotionally developed. It's a hard thing to make work you just need the right person next to you and it will work.

[Paradox1987]

My "worst" romances have been with fellow NFs and my best with NTs. So long as they aren't bereft of emotional intelligence, I think it'll work out fine. It does depend hugely on the maturity levels of both people though.

[NaughyChimp]

I've seen this dynamic also happen in platonic friendships, too. Well, not the falling head over heels part, but the NF wanting closeness and affirmation in a way that the NT doesn't understand and/or doesn't want to provide.

[aconite]

I
The general sequence of events is this:
Stage 1: NT meets NF. NF is enamoured of NT, falls head over heels. NT is characteristically cautious, but interested. NFs are fun, after all.

Nah, too much generalisation. Not all NTs are cautious, and not all NF are instantly enamoured. I'm an NT, and had a relationship with someone who is, I think, an ENFP, and the initial attraction was definitely mutual. At first on an intellectual level, at least from my perspective, fueled by Ne superpowers, strong in both of us.

Stage 2: NF appreciates and admires many characteristics of the NT and thus begins to behave more like an NT, perhaps even fooling the NT into thinking s/he is an NT. NT then relaxes, figuring s/he's with a kindred spirit, gets more comfortable with the relationship, starts acting like normal NT self, expecting to be understood.

Yeah, that part feels familiar.

Stage 3: NF feels NT cooling off and wonders what s/he is doing wrong. Tries to be more like NT to compensate. This doesn't feel right. NF gets needy and/or begins to consider is her/his duty to draw the NT out of her/his shell, encouraging the NT to express all those feelings buried deep inside. NT doesn't get it.

LOL, I was accused of being heartless, while from my POV I was objective and unbiased.

Stage 4: NT feels pressure from NFs emotional demands, needs distance to figure things out. (This might be only INTs. I'm not sure.) NF panics, becomes more needy. NT withdraws more...NF needs more...and so on and so on.

Or in my case: the NF gets on their high horse and proclaims moral superiority. The NT gets confused, bored, annoyed and cheats.

Stage 5: NF suddenly realizes that the reason things aren't working is that the NT is cold and unfeeling or not nurturing or some other horrible thing. Abandons NT without looking back. (This is especially likely with the NFPs.) NT is confused and (sometimes) relieved.

Nope. In my case , the NT (meaning me) abandoned the NF (meaning my ex) because I thought it wouldn't work, and already found someone else.

Do you believe this phenomenon exists?

not really

Have you ever experienced it?

look above

What do you believe that both parties could do to avoid it... or is it an inevitable dynamic between NFs & NTs? I'm curious to hear from any NTs or NFs.

I think it's less a matter of being a NT, a NF or whatnot... My parents are an ENTJ and an INFP, married for 26 years, so it might definitely work. The most important factor is, I think, not a MBTI type, but similar goals, worldviews and interests.

[Paradox1987]

I think it's less a matter of being a NT, a NF or whatnot... My parents are an ENTJ and an INFP, married for 26 years, so it might definitely work. The most important factor is, I think, not a MBTI type, but similar goals, worldviews and interests.

This x 1000

[Enfpleasantly]

Well, this is not how the relationship with my ENTJ started. Neither of us even knew about personality types when we met and that was probably an advantage. I was just me and he was just him. He was goofy and I was goofy. I was serious and he was serious. There was no NT/NF guard because we didn't know it existed. So I didn't feel pressure to be more NT like, and he didn't feel pressure to be more NF like. We both had our ridiculous moments, and we both had our calm and collected moments.

I might get tomatoes thrown at me for this but to be honest, I think this is where it might be a downfall for people who are very young, and haven't found themselves yet to know their type and the types of others...

If we are naturally drawn to those who are compatible with our type, then we will find them on our own; we don't need MBTI to find our perfect match. As an adult, it might be a useful tool, but I think it could be a potential problem when young people use it to find or reject boyfriends and girlfriends.

Also, your type doesn't define you. I often wonder if a young person who learns their type will tend to utilize it like a self fulfilling prophecy? ie: "oh, I'm not tidy because ENFP's aren't tidy" "I like to boss people around because ENTJ's boss people around" etc. I hope they understand that they are who they are and if they are a neat and tidy ENFP, then they are still an ENFP, and if they are ENTJ and don't boss people around, they are still ENTJ. Sorry if that sounds rude to the younger crowd. And of course, those examples are just stereotypes.

[E_N_T_P]

I think I've seen this in male/female interaction in a relationship where one likes the other more. But why do you think this specifically applies to NF/NT and not other types?

[NaughyChimp]

But why do you think this specifically applies to NF/NT and not other types?

It's not my theory; it's one I've seen mentioned again and again on other boards. I'd imagine it would be true in many ExFx/ xxTx couplings but you'll have to ask those who keep quoting it for truth on the PerC boards and write about it elsewhere (as did the author of the passage I quoted above) why they think it applies specifically to NF/NT pairings.

Have you seen it occur between other Types? I believe that I have...

[MuChApArAdOx]

It really depends on the two people in question. In my relationship it was all about balance, and compromises. We shared the same goals and interest. We viewed the world basically the same way. Although he isn't hear to defend himself * cough*, my husband was actually more needy than i was ;) Neither of us were looking for anything serious when we met. I stayed true to myself and so did he. We talked about life, careers, travel, kids, you name it, we talked about it early on in our relationship. Like @Enfpleasantly said, i didn't know about MBTI then, and didn't have an hidden agenda's, nor did he. We clicked, connected on every level. We both really enjoyed intellectual conversations in serious moments, yet both could be totally crazy random fools too ( no, i think that was just me, although he didn't mind coming along for the ride ;)...although he has a very silly playful side to him also.

I think it makes sense that if you have two mature people who have a common goal in mind, who value and respect many of the same things, it will make the relationship solid. We both have our strengths and weakness in all areas , emotionally, physically, mentally, etc. What i lack, he fills in the gap and visa versa. Personally i think both have to be equally emotionally and mentally mature. Too much emotion, or too much logic isn't a healthy balance. We like to meet somewhere in the middle.