[Razvan]

Either way I believe that manipulation as a whole is wrong, but when used properly to help humanity as a whole and not for selfish reasons it is a skill that can be learned and used in positive ways.

Well, manipulation for the sake of humanity? Yeah right. I doubt people appreciate being manipulated even if it's for their own good, I think it's always better to be honest, tell them the truth, argument it and wait till enough of them listen to reason to change things. I'd love to be given a few examples from history when this has happened and it had a positive outcome on long term.

[Crono]

I try to avoid manipulation where possible, but there are some situations where I just don't have the time or ability to have a full-blown philosophical discourse over a particular detail or with someone as a how.

[frenchie]

It happened to me with my current girlfriend before I discovered MBTI.

Before we started going out, she would always tell me about other men who dressed better and had better jobs than I did. It made me really insecure as a person and then right after she said no to us dating (different story) I went out and did everything that she mentioned to me. I bought new clothes, started studying for the LSATs and GREs, bought new colognes, etc etc.

Needless to say, she never will admit to it but I called her out on it. She does tend to use her people convincing power for good. If anything I adore her now because of it. We're dating now but still, it's pretty funny how I fell pray to it.

[Happy about Nothing.]

In my teenage years I do think that I was manipulative.....in a bad way. It was selfish. However, I do believe that much of it can be attributed to fear of vulnerability. I was manipulative when I felt threatened or unappreciated. I manipulated to try to gain that appreciation.

In retrospect, I know see that it was this fear and insecurity...which stirred up a huge desire for control within me. I think, as I have grown and matured as a human being, I tend to avoid manipulation at all costs (However, it still occurs without my knowledge on occasion...[:) I know I still have a desire to control my surroundings, but I try my best to abstain from negative infractions of this type.

Anyways, I think the word manipulation carries so many heavy, negative connotations. Manipulation, (much like the word consequence) immediately carries a negative weight. Just reading it gives me a sinking feeling in my gut.

To wrap things up. At this point in my life, if I "manipulate" (which I'm sure I do) in a good or bad way....I don't see it as manipulation. It's almost instinctual, for if I recognized it as being harmful, I would try my best to discard of the behavior.

Can someone lend me some Pness? :]

[Jawz]

People of all 16 types can be guilty of manipulation in their own way. It's not a trait specific to just one type --- almost everyone does it to someone else at least once in their life. Just admit it and move on :)

The idea is to grow as individuals and not accuse people of having type specific traits [either positive or negative] just because they happened to show up in some random web-site's description.

[Happy about Nothing.]

Well, manipulation for the sake of humanity? Yeah right. I doubt people appreciate being manipulated even if it's for their own good, I think it's always better to be honest, tell them the truth, argument it and wait till enough of them listen to reason to change things. I'd love to be given a few examples from history when this has happened and it had a positive outcome on long term.

I think Dr. Martin Luther King is a great example. :]

[Crono]

Hmmm...another thing I was just thinking about: In a group setting, I'm very watchful of people to make sure that nobody is vying for power for the sake of their own ego, etc. I find that, sometimes, when I find that that sort of person is trying to set something like that in motion, that I need to be manipulative in a way to show them that that sort of behaviour isn't welcome. It's actually pretty tough to get a group of people in the mentality where everyone isn't trying to claw their way aggressively to the top, and one or two of the wrong unhealthy people can actually ruin that almost single-handedly. I'm willing to be a little underhanded in the short term if it's necessary to stop something like that.

[Razvan]

I think Dr. Martin Luther King is a great example. :]

I had not realised he manipulated people (even if for the good or for humanity), he inspired, he lead them, he game them a dream : freedom, but manipulating...I don't know, I may not know many details about US history, but I did not see it there. Either he was too good at doing it or I just can't see it.

People of all 16 types can be guilty of manipulation in their own way. It's not a trait specific to just one type --- almost everyone does it to someone else at least once in their life. Just admit it and move on :)

The idea is to grow as individuals and not accuse people of having type specific traits [either positive or negative] just because they happened to show up in some random web-site's description.

Yeap, this is so right...and here's something ironic, I've been accused by an ENFJ that I am manipulative. Which may or may not be partially true, depending how you view things. I call it subtle persuasion, but most of the times the situations the ENFJ was referring to...it was just that things fall into place like I want them to, like...it's God's will. It's my amazing intuition, if I listen to it and I am in a positive mood, things fall into place like they should be, even if it's not like I want it to be. Does this make any sense?

Anyway in my opinion, from the situations encountered, I'd say the ENFJ was being more manipulative to get her way and persuade people, compared to me...I'm sort of an amateur. I generally don't like to ask people to help me, but I'm too nice and they like me so much, they see me lost in the things I have to do so they volunteer to help. I doubt that can be called manipulation.

[Jawz]

I had not realised he manipulated people (even if for the good or for humanity), he inspired, he lead them, he game them a dream : freedom, but manipulating...I don't know, I may not know many details about US history, but I did not see it there. Either he was too good at doing it or I just can't see it.



Yeap, this is so right...and here's something ironic, I've been accused by an ENFJ that I am manipulative. Which may or may not be partially true, depending how you view things. I call it subtle persuasion, but most of the times the situations the ENFJ was referring to...it was just that things fall into place like I want them to, like...it's God's will. It's my amazing intuition, if I listen to it and I am in a positive mood, things fall into place like they should be, even if it's not like I want it to be. Does this make any sense?

Anyway in my opinion, from the situations encountered, I'd say the ENFJ was being more manipulative to get her way and persuade people, compared to me...I'm sort of an amateur. I generally don't like to ask people to help me, but I'm too nice and they like me so much, they see me lost in the things I have to do so they volunteer to help. I doubt that can be called manipulation.

It could seem like more .. because we're involved with more people ... but out of a 100 of my friends .. only 1 has ever refused my advice or gotten rubbed off by me the wrong way.

[Razvan]

It could seem like more .. because we're involved with more people ... but out of a 100 of my friends .. only 1 has ever refused my advice or gotten rubbed off by me the wrong way.

Well, yeah, maybe, but I wasn't thinking about giving advice here, I was thinking about actually getting people to do things for you. ENFJs can get people to do things for them with a smile on their face and nice wording of their request, which would be Fe in action, maybe? I can be specific, if you are really curios of my example and normally I am specific, but from my experience with ENFJs, this abstract concept is enough for you to get the idea and I wouldn't want to post that example of manipulation here, I don't know, feel like keeping it a bit private. I kind of realised that I was sort of being manipulated while I was doing it, but I thought it was funny (was like, hey, so that's how ENFJ manipulation looks like ), I didn't really mind because I like helping in general, especially those who I consider friends. Just thought it wasn't needed. Maybe we INFPs, because of our Ne need specific examples to get a concept better, I don't know, if you really want to know the details I'll send you a PM.