[Gnothi Seauton]

And that does not solve the problem. \

Actually, it does...at least on a personal level. In my opinion, everything starts on an individual level, by setting the example that purchasing products(not just chocolate products) from these inhumane vendors will not be tolerated, then perhaps you can influence other people to do the same. Not saying that they will actually do it, or listen to you, but at least they will take you more seriously when you're trying to advocate against these issues.

That is why I suggested growing your own chocolate(or whatever). Not only will it be healthier(organic), but also it will be a way that doesn't support these kinds of abuses.

At this moment, that's all we can do. We can only be responsible for ourselves and our actions. Perhaps later in life you can actually undertake a more ambitious influence on eliminating these awful circumstances that these people who are being treated as slaves are enduring. Unless, of course, if you have that power right now, then by all means I'd say "go for it!" :)

[Angelic Gardevoir]

Actually, it does...at least on a personal level. In my opinion, everything starts on an individual level, by setting the example that purchasing products(not just chocolate products) from these inhumane vendors will not be tolerated, then perhaps you can influence other people to do the same. Not saying that they will actually do it, or listen to you, but at least they will take you more seriously when you're trying to advocate against these issues.

Perhaps...but I just feel that I wouldn't be making much of a difference even if I did. I know moping won't solve the problem, but I think the whole problem is systematic. Changes can be made either top-down or bottom-up, but if neither side is willing to listen, then what can you do? (And I realize that this attitude may be the reason why this is continuing, but I'm really in no position to stop it.) Plus, it's Africa. Governments in African countries are just so screwed up that nothing less than government reform will help anything in the long run there. That's not to say that corporations shouldn't hold the blame for turning a blind eye and indirectly supporting this, but it's a complicated problem.

[Gnothi Seauton]

That's not to say that corporations shouldn't hold the blame for turning a blind eye and indirectly supporting this, but it's a complicated problem.

You know( and you might hate me for saying this), but I don't really blame the corporations and governments for all of this, I blame ourselves. We are providing the demand for cheap products, and these people are providing the means for these products to be at such low prices: by exploiting people in third world countries into servitude.

My point in all of this is that instead of looking outwardly for blame, it would be more empowering to take that blame into ourselves by realizing that we are the root of the problem. As a result, we are taking direct responsibility of what we do and because of it, we are actually being active participants into the affairs of the world without depending on governments or corporations to do the job for us.

I do agree, though, that with the help of a government it would make things easier and have a greater impact versus just some individuals, but if the governments are as corrupt as the exporters of cheap products, then it just makes things frustrating and hopeless and overall, I'd feel less in control of what happens.

[Angelic Gardevoir]

You know( and you might hate me for saying this), but I don't really blame the corporations and governments for all of this, I blame ourselves. We are providing the demand for cheap products, and these people are providing the means for these products to be at such low prices: by exploiting people in third world countries into servitude.

Fair enough, though most people don't really realize the connection between the problems of third world nations and our consumption. (I never realized it until a couple of years ago.) And yet another problem is that many people can only afford cheap products...even just basic things such as food and clothing. (I would explain my own convoluted circumstances in this thread, but I'd be digressing too much.)

[Gnothi Seauton]

And yet another problem is that many people can only afford cheap products...even just basic things such as food and clothing.

Believe me, I understand this as well. I was a college student myself not long ago, and was sometimes guilty of going to Wal-mart when I didn't have money to spend in local shops that had significant higher prices. It would be pretty hypocritical of me to say that I have not bought things that I knew were from sweatshops overseas where people would get paid a mediocre salary, or things of that nature. But I made an oath with myself that I will give to charities whenever I could to sort of compensate for doing those things later when I would get a good job. I guess it was my way for not feeling guilty for using products with questionable manufacturers.

So I do really empathize the situation that you're going through since I was there myself. I just think that we can redeem ourselves by always choosing the best course of action and decision when we do have other options before us.

(I would explain my own convoluted circumstances in this thread, but I'd be digressing too much.)

You can PM me if you feel up to it.

[Marac]

[bellisaurius]

A lot of people here might know this already, but..

The worst part about this is that I had eaten chocolate not long before I found this. O_O

Before anyone brings it up, I did find out that there is such a thing as fair trade chocolate. The thing is though, I probably couldn't find it anywhere where I live.

The guilt is killing me...

EDIT: Before making a comment, please read post #10.

It should be noted that people lie and manipulate the fair trade system as well. There's auditing and such, but in that area of the world, you can't be a hundred percent. It even occurs in the 'debt slavery' model in the US. The debt bondage model (I pay you or your parent X, for Y work, which you won't be able to quite pay off) is the normal model for most slavery in the modern world, btw.

As a side note, child labor on farms (I realize we're talking about the slave labor aspect here, but it's important to note) is still the norm in most places, even the US. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as it's part of a long tradition, provides a skill, and doesn't prevent the child from receiving an outside education.

I'm ambivalent about a full fledged boycott though. The problem here is only partly the child debt slavery. The underlying issue is that there are parents poor enough to feel the need to sell off one of the kids to save the rest of them. Boycotting makes the economic situation worse, and it seems like it might have the opposite of the intended consequence. For example: Farms that grow cocoa switch to some other crop, still employing child labor, or the farms go bust, the families who had otherwise survived by selling off one child, have a bunch of children die off due to lack of money.

[Angelic Gardevoir]

It should be noted that people lie and manipulate the fair trade system as well. There's auditing and such, but in that area of the world, you can't be a hundred percent. It even occurs in the 'debt slavery' model in the US. The debt bondage model (I pay you or your parent X, for Y work, which you won't be able to quite pay off) is the normal model for most slavery in the modern world, btw.

As a side note, child labor on farms (I realize we're talking about the slave labor aspect here, but it's important to note) is still the norm in most places, even the US. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as it's part of a long tradition, provides a skill, and doesn't prevent the child from receiving an outside education.

I'm ambivalent about a full fledged boycott though. The problem here is only partly the child debt slavery. The underlying issue is that there are parents poor enough to feel the need to sell off one of the kids to save the rest of them. Boycotting makes the economic situation worse, and it seems like it might have the opposite of the intended consequence. For example: Farms that grow cocoa switch to some other crop, still employing child labor, or the farms go bust, the families who had otherwise survived by selling off one child, have a bunch of children die off due to lack of money.

Glad to finally see a more objective perspective on this. It's not so much of the "using child labor on farms" that is bothering me. It's more of the treatment of the children and the fact that it is slave labor. If it were simply children harvesting cocoa, being treated humanely, and not having being forced to do it, I wouldn't feel nearly as guilty.

Africa is probably one of the, if not the, most messed up continents in existence. There's little I can do to help that. Also, through the articles I've read about this, some of the farmers say that one of the problems is that they make so little money selling cocoa that they can't afford to pay the children or improve their living conditions. And I also realize that a boycott probably wouldn't do very much unless it became a nationwide thing...it's just that the guilt gets to me.

[bellisaurius]

Glad to finally see a more objective perspective on this.

Someone's got to be the cold-hearted analytical bastard. When I feel my heart strings twicth, I think twice. Too easy to react in a suboptimal manner.

[Ann]

Unfortunately these kind of atrocities take place in the production of a number of goods; not just chocolate.

Agreed. Moving away from Kraft and Hershey chocolates and towards more fairly harvested foods is great, but the conversation should be continued. How else does food enslave people? Sofia Gatica and her group of mamas from Argentina showed that something like 1/3 of the residents in her village near a Monsanto crop field had cancer. The group originally came together after these women realized how unnaturally high the rate of infant death/serious disfigurement was in their community compared to the rest of the country's. These women aren't even a part of the agricultural industry, and were brutalized by it.
How does food enslave American farmers? They know (well, most of them) that single crop harvests vastly exacerbated the effects of the drought during the Dust Bowl, so they know plant diversity is important. But because only a few crops are heavily subsidized, only those crops can be sold cheap, which means only those crops will be bought in vast quantities. Because farmers have to make a living, they give up their power to take care of their soil by planting amaranth and spelt, because it's corn and soy that pay the property taxes.
Rice is grows naturally in standing water. Central California is dry, dry, dry -- and yet, there are artificial rice patties in central CA that receive their water by diverting it from the north. This slashes how much runoff makes it to the ocean, and thus stresses salmon and many other species. The salmon, especially, rob the Trinity tribes a sustainable feeding system they had which didn't force them to purchase food from white corporations.
Your plasticized carton of orange juice required both a tree and petroleum products to make it. Possibly somebody's home was relocated so the forest they lived in could be razed; possibly somebody's home is in the center of an international struggle for the right to buy oil cheaply.

It's hard eating responsibility in some places. Most places have limited bulk options, food deserts have increased prices on organic foods -- and, if you do live in a food desert, it's not very ecological to transport food to you, anyway.

It's hard... I don't really know what the right answer is when you live in a place where making the right decisions about everything is hard. Just giving up luxury foods is good, though: non fair trade coffees and chocolates, out of season fruits and veggies..

I am fortunate that, where I am right now, I literally have the ability to buy all my food local. However, I am about to move to an isolated desert in upcoming months, and have been reciting all these conflicts to myself. So I'm happy to see other people struggling with the ways slavery shows up on our plates.