The Topic of Transsexuality

**Hiccups24-7** · 05-22-2012 01:03 AM

I think you're both confusing people that simply have hormonal imbalances and those that have gender dysphoria. Hormonal imbalances can exist without GD and can be treated with just hormonal supplements. For example a guy with low T feels that he is male but shows/feels symptoms of low T, then has the tests, has the imbalance confirmed then takes supplements and feels better.

For someone who has GD they can have both low and normal hormone levels but their hormone levels don't determine their gender identity per se. And like it's been stated giving someone with GD more of the same hormone won't "fix" their GD but will only exacerbate the problem.

**Sonny** · 05-22-2012 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by Shahada

So, to go back to my question about intersexed persons with one set of genitalia undeveloped: This is a common occurrence, correct? In cases like these, how often do the persons who have the less developed genitalia surgically removed regret or even know about the operation after the fact? Are there any documented issues with remaining intersexed, either physically or psychologically? Honest questions, I was under the impression undeveloped genitals was fairly common in people born intersexed and that the removal of undeveloped genitals was also fairly common and usually not harmful (physically or psychologically), but I am by no means an expert so I could definitely be wrong.

I have heard of people who were operated on as children being angry and feeling violated and/or mutilated. I have heard of people who were not operated on as children who do not believe there is anything wrong with their body.

I have not heard examples of people who were operated on as children and are happy about it. This does not mean they do not exist, but the cost for those mentioned above is too high even if there are.

The reason more and more doctors are changing their views on infant operations is because these children are growing up angry at what was done to them and telling people to stop.

There are several issues, the first is the reason for surgery; if it is not about valid and immediate health issues then the decision can wait until the person who has to live in that body for their entire lives can make it.

The second is the secrecy surrounding the surgeries; it is most common for these children to be deliberately kept in the dark, at the doctors orders. And not just because they are too young to understand, women with AIS often have a shared experience of being lied to as a young teenage girl about why they were being taken to hospital for an operation, they deserved to know.

The third reason is the one already mentioned; cut something out like this and it will not grow back, this is irreversible, if you get it wrong you make life harder for the child in the future.

The last reason that comes to mind is the one that I have the hardest time with, it's a combination of the first and third reasons; Surgery is a risk, it always is, something can go wrong. Why put your baby at risk for something that is not impacting on their quality of life simply because you believe they will be looked at strangely in a locker room, or worse still because you fear they will not be able to have a normal sex life, so you put them in a situation that risks their ability to enjoy sex or maybe makes it so sex is painful.

Originally Posted by Shahada

But I still think this issue is more complicated than you are making it out to be - the gender binary may not exist to you or me, but we both have to deal with the implications of a society and culture that believes in it, as do our children.

It's two very different topics; surgery and social expectations. Surgery options are simple. Social expectations are a mine field.

Babies should not be operated on because society cannot accept gender is not black and white. They do have to live in that world though.

Originally Posted by Shahada

Also I'm not sure I buy that "when they're the right age they'll know what gender they are." This isn't even true among transgendered people, many do not realize they are transgendered until much later in life.

You have people who are queergendered or agendered, and you have transsexuals, none to my knowledge are confused about who they are, they either object to being forced to pick, feel no need to pick, or do not know they can do something about not feeling right in their body. From birth we are all told who we should be, someone who does not meet gender expectations will be confused about the expectations, not who they are, it is an important distinction to make. The children will know, and usually by age 5 they will be capable of articulating with the correct questions.

Someone's inability to comprehend anothers gender identity does not mean that person is confused.

**Bremy** · 05-22-2012 06:09 AM

I really didn't fully understand transexuals until I read "I am Jay" it's a first person perspective of a transexual teen it really opened my eyes, and made it easier to understand what transexuals were going through.

**Shahada** · 05-22-2012 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sonny

You have people who are queergendered or agendered, and you have transsexuals, none to my knowledge are confused about who they are, they either object to being forced to pick, feel no need to pick, or do not know they can do something about not feeling right in their body. From birth we are all told who we should be, someone who does not meet gender expectations will be confused about the expectations, not who they are, it is an important distinction to make. The children will know, and usually by age 5 they will be capable of articulating with the correct questions.Someone's inability to comprehend anothers gender identity does not mean that person is confused.

I think the rest of your post is fine but this is a little too broad for me. I don't think it's a fact that people always just "know who they are" and any confusion is just a result of them being confused by social expectations. I realize there are people who do not identify as male or female necessarily and who are fine with that and don't wish to identify as male or female, that's fine and totally valid. What I have a problem with is you seem to be saying that if I go through a period of confusion about my gender identification for many years, and many years later I realize that I am a given gender (or non-gender as the case may be), then I always "knew" I was this gender, but I was just confused because of social expectations? That seems circular. What if I identify as one gender for a period of my life, then later another? Is the one I stay with permanently what I've always been? It seems like a more mutable view of gender would more accurately account for such individuals than just saying that they've always been what they are now.

**Sonny** · 05-22-2012 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Shahada

I think the rest of your post is fine but this is a little too broad for me. I don't think it's a fact that people always just "know who they are" and any confusion is just a result of them being confused by social expectations. I realize there are people who do not identify as male or female necessarily and who are fine with that and don't wish to identify as male or female, that's fine and totally valid. What I have a problem with is you seem to be saying that if I go through a period of confusion about my gender identification for many years, and many years later I realize that I am a given gender (or non-gender as the case may be), then I always "knew" I was this gender, but I was just confused because of social expectations? That seems circular. What if I identify as one gender for a period of my life, then later another? Is the one I stay with permanently what I've always been? It seems like a more mutable view of gender would more accurately account for such individuals than just saying that they've always been what they are now.

I'm sure there will always be experiences that go against the majority trends, I'm not an absolutist on anything, but one of the things most commonly stated by transsexuals is that in their earliest memories they knew who they were, they just didn't know what it meant for the most part. The struggle is not knowing who they were at their core but knowing what that meant and what they could do about it. I do not ignore that many children considered transgendered in one way or another when they are young grow to identify as gay. My point is not that someone struggling with knowing gender will discover they always knew who they were, rather that most people do not struggle with knowing their gender, regardless of if they present in accordance with it.

A child will gravitate towards what is comfortable to them.

My main issue with what you wrote is people not realising they're transgendered in some way until later in life. I'm not a fan of the term transgendered which is why I separate into queergendered, agendered and transsexual. If they are a transsexual who didn't know then it means no one ever gave them the vocabulary, if they're queergendered or agendered then it's a lot more relevant for what you're talking about to happen, but the question is does it matter to them to know? It comes back to an expectation of fitting in one camp or the other, those who struggle with knowing their gender will not. So the not picking is part of the answer.

**Jennywocky** · 05-22-2012 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Hiccups24-7

I think you're both confusing people that simply have hormonal imbalances and those that have gender dysphoria. Hormonal imbalances can exist without GD and can be treated with just hormonal supplements. For example a guy with low T feels that he is male but shows/feels symptoms of low T, then has the tests, has the imbalance confirmed then takes supplements and feels better.

For someone who has GD they can have both low and normal hormone levels but their hormone levels don't determine their gender identity per se. And like it's been stated giving someone with GD more of the same hormone won't "fix" their GD but will only exacerbate the problem.

Yeah, that's totally it.

It reminds me of how doctors used to try to "fix male homosexuals" by giving them more testosterone as adults, figuring it would make them straight. It doesn't. Instead their sex drive increases even more, still oriented towards other men; and they have all the normal symptoms for testosterone overdose. They respond as typical men. (And same thing for cisgen men and women given more hormones of the proper type in order to get them within "normal range" for their gender.)

The response for a transsexual would be very different. F2Ms really like tesosterone in terms of how it makes them feel, M2Fs would feel even crappier about themselves; and vice versa.