[JigOS]

What you're saying though, despite the use of the word culture, is basically a restatement of the "Clash of Civilizations" thesis, that there are distinct "cultures" in the world that largely have distinct boundaries, and some of these cultures are incompatible with each other and conflict between them is inevitable. The Clash of Civilizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Right - read up on the Clash of Civilizations hypothesis and its criticisms. I'm not fully convinced the argument is invalid, as i'd need to research it myself - but for this discourse, i'll concede that it is.
Since it was the basis of my main argument, that has been invalidated as well.

"There's no way for a Muslim to be secular, except the ones who are." You know even the recent history of the Middle East is full of secular governments, right? Most of the governments that are experiencing uprisings right now are strongly secular governments.

More like, "Fundamental Islam denies secularism. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, but some are."

If ideologies of the West in Islamic countries have the effect of diminishing religiosity, then it proves that the ideologies and the religion are incompatible.

No it doesn't. What you have stated here is a non-sequitur, that doesn't prove what you say it proves at all. It may indicate that it could be true, but it doesn't prove anything.

"Imply".

I meant it "implies they're incompatible". Yeah..

*cough*

>.>
<.<



But, I must ask: hypothetically, what do *you* propose will happen in these two scenarios: 1: The West experiences, at this current time, an 'Islamic phenomenon' or 'movement' in which large amounts of people convert to Islam, and 2: Over a decade or two, Islam in the West grows to represent a politically significant amount of people?

[Shahada]

But, I must ask: hypothetically, what do *you* propose will happen in these two scenarios: 1: The West experiences, at this current time, an 'Islamic phenomenon' or 'movement' in which large amounts of people convert to Islam, and 2: Over a decade or two, Islam in the West grows to represent a politically significant amount of people?

1) I don't really see this happening right now so I have no idea how to answer this. The conditions that would be required for such an event would produce a world radically different from the one we actually live in.

2) I suppose most likely you will see Muslims have more influence on the political process, but this doesn't imply any sort of fundamentalism. Western Muslims tend to be less fundamentalist on the whole. I see no reason why your average Muslim can't peacefully participate in the political process. This is assuming, of course, that the current wave of xenophobic Islamophobia sweeping Europe and the US does not escalate dramatically, which is a very real possibility. If that happens I imagine you will see escalated violence (explicit or implicitly through the legal system) against Muslims in the West and a more radicalized Western Muslim population.

[wiarumas]

Should I notify my Islamic coworkers and friends that they can never assimilate into Western culture even though they've been living here for a couple generations and have no hint of being anything other than an American with a separate belief?

They aren't timebombs waiting to go off. They are normal people just like any other religious person.

As far as i know, there *is* no separation of religion and state in Islam

Yes, there is. Not only is there evidence of this in nearly every developed country with a Muslim population, but it is currently separating as we speak in the Middle East.

[Shahada]

Yes, there is. Not only is there evidence of this in nearly every developed country with a Muslim population, but it is currently separating as we speak in the Middle East.

I agree with your general point but this isn't quite accurate. Most of the regimes that are experiencing uprisings in the Middle East and North Africa are secular regimes that already largely have a separation of church and state. Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, and Libya are/were all secular states. In fact in some of the uprisings Islamist groups have been quite prominent (though not necessarily the dominating forces behind the uprisings), such as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Syria. I'm not making a value judgement here or trying to say these bastions of secular freedom are about to be overthrown by the Taliban or anything like that, in fact the Muslim Brotherhood and similar parties are not anywhere near analogous to groups like the Taliban, which is what most Westerners think when they hear "Islamist." But it's important to recognize the facts around these events so we don't get confused and make errors based on inaccurate perceptions.

[absent air]

I'm a little late to this party, and i haven't read the entire thread, but i'll just stick my 2c in.

Question: "Is Islam a threat to the Western World?"

Answer: "Yes." - It is an issue of culture and identity.

The West is certain set of countries with a certain overarching common culture, called Western culture, that forms the basis of the countries' individual cultures. Islam is a religion that promotes/creates, or *is* another overarching culture, called Islamic culture, that forms the basis of many countries in the Middle East.

Each of these 'overarching cultures' is based on a set of distinct, defining beliefs and values - some of which are fundamentally different, or incompatible with those of the other.

As is with any human society, if one culture is permeated enough with people from another culture, some measure of assimilation is going to occur.
In the case of the West vs Islam, the points of assimilation in question are fundamental values that the West forms its very identity on.

Therefore, if Islam were to assimilate with the West, the West would cease to be itself.

This brings up the question of cultural strength. In this case, i think Islamic culture would be stronger as it is based on a religion, which is altogether more strongly held and adhered to by humans than a national culture, which is what the West is.

This concept is merely a fact. Whether it is 'good' or 'bad' is a subjective notion.

The western culture is partly based on Christianity and the Middle-Eastern culture is partly based on Islam.

culture =/= religion


The facts is that Islam dominates the West, but it is NOT a fact that the domination itself is a threat. That is merely a view of a Xenophobic person.

My perspective is that Islam is no threat at all, I believe it is a redemption.

[JigOS]

They aren't timebombs waiting to go off. They are normal people just like any other religious person.

Don't be ridiculous. I do not mean to say that they're going to 'turn' at any moment and bomb the West into oblivion; I said, in my original post here, that if Islam did pose a threat to the West, it would be on grounds of cultural identity (also by implication: politics), not blatant warfare.

The western culture is partly based on Christianity and the Middle-Eastern culture is partly based on Islam.

culture =/= religion

True, but culture is 'below' religion. When a religion and a culture have a discrepancy, the religion *demands* that you defer to it, because it's of a higher order of importance. This goes for politics and law, as well: If your country passes a law banning the practice of your religion/worshiping your God, you are called, as a member of that religion, to defy your nation's [unethical] laws and continue worshiping.
For people who are a community based on their religion, their culture is often influenced [a lot] by their religion.

The facts is that Islam dominates the West, but it is NOT a fact that the domination itself is a threat. That is merely a view of a Xenophobic person.

What do you mean 'Islam dominates the West'?

My perspective is that Islam is no threat at all, I believe it is a redemption.

Can you explain what you mean?

Also, i have a few questions:

1. What is the Quran's stance on separation of religion and state (regardless of whether people follow it or not)? What is the opinion of the majority of Muslims? What are your particular denomination's views on it?

2. Why is it that in Islamic states, there are often laws preventing other the practice of other religions? For example, in Saudi Arabia, converting a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death (albeit it has not happened in a while), engaging in prominent practice of other religions risks arrest/punishment? Does the Quran have anything to say about this? Again, what is the Muslim majority's opinion? What's yours?

[DarkyNWO]

Can't be arsed to read throught 61 pages of discussion but here is my 2 cents on the whole idea.

First and foremost, what troubles me with this religion is it seems to follow violence wherever it goes. That it demands respect from everyone and don't tolerate anything else but it's own dogma. It follows ideas that were written and composed several centuries ago and they are not applicable with todays western society.

Another thing wich I personally have a lot against and I know that a lot of my friends have aswell is their view of women. I just can't get it out of my head how on earth women can even consider being associated with this male-dominated religion. Forcing women into submission with the threat of violence once again. And in some eastern countries women are worth half of what a man is. And before you backlash with "Oh my that was pretty much the general view here too 150 years ago!" Yes, I know that. But you said it yourself. 150 years ago. Certainly it ain't perfect, but atleast we're going in the right direction, and bringing in Islam in our culture will certainly not help it go forward in that aspect.

For instance, Sweden have had a -lot- of immigrants comming here the past 10 years. Most of them being from the middle east and there has also been a dramatic increase in rapes in Sweden the past 10 years. I don't know, maybe my brain is making patterns that it's not supposed to. Also there has been a lot of writing about these so called 'honour killings' latley aswell. Young girls killed by their families cause they loved the wrong person or whatever.

And all I can think of is; Why do you want that in our society?

As a last note. I really don't like religion in a general, mostly for all that it has done the past 2000 years and what is done in the name of it. I don't have a problem if someone want to belieave in %Whatever% aslong as they keep it to themselves, but most people don't.

[absent air]

True, but culture is 'below' religion. When a religion and a culture have a discrepancy, the religion *demands* that you defer to it, because it's of a higher order of importance. This goes for politics and law, as well: If your country passes a law banning the practice of your religion/worshiping your God, you are called, as a member of that religion, to defy your nation's [unethical] laws and continue worshiping.
For people who are a community based on their religion, their culture is often influenced [a lot] by their religion.

Good thing we agreed on that.

What do you mean 'Islam dominates the West'?

Islam is steadily growing in the west. Since, as you said, religion demands you to put culture in a lower priority, it will turn the culture into a religion-friendly one which will obviously contradict the western culture in some points, hence turning Islam into a threat to the ol' Western culture. The rates of growth of Islam in Europe reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to immigration in the West and higher birth rates. As far I know for the United States, conversion rates had a significant increase in the North America after the 9/11 attacks, which most likely caused more Americans to study Islam in depth. Back to Europe, there are around 10,000 – 20,000 people convert to Islam per year in Britain only.( I personally have seen many conversions to Islam, surprisingly most of these people belong to the elite of society(in terms of professions), and most of them are female.)

This, in a nutshell, Is what I mean with my quote.

Can you explain what you mean?

I mean that Islam itself is one of the most peaceful religion I have ever come across with. If you want to find out, why don't you just read the Qur'an for yourself, it has convinced 1.2billion people on the earth.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. What is the Quran's stance on separation of religion and state (regardless of whether people follow it or not)? What is the opinion of the majority of Muslims? What are your particular denomination's views on it?

Secularism cannot be a solution for countries with a Muslim majority or even a sizeable minority, for it requires people to replace their God-given beliefs with an entirely different set of man-made beliefs. Separation of religion and state is not an option for Muslims because is requires us to abandon Allah's decree for that of a man.

2. Why is it that in Islamic states, there are often laws preventing other the practice of other religions? For example, in Saudi Arabia, converting a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death (albeit it has not happened in a while), engaging in prominent practice of other religions risks arrest/punishment? Does the Quran have anything to say about this? Again, what is the Muslim majority's opinion? What's yours?

“This is a message from prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine Monastery

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”


That should say enough, to add credibility to my stance, here is an entire chapter from the Quran.

109:1 Surat al-kafiroon
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

[JigOS]

I mean that Islam itself is one of the most peaceful religion I have ever come across with. If you want to find out, why don't you just read the Qur'an for yourself, it has convinced 1.2billion people on the earth.

I intend to.

Secularism cannot be a solution for countries with a Muslim majority or even a sizeable minority, for it requires people to replace their God-given beliefs with an entirely different set of man-made beliefs. Separation of religion and state is not an option for Muslims because is requires us to abandon Allah's decree for that of a man.

Thanks for answering; But i am unsure as to what this answer represents. Is this the Quran's stance, the majority of Muslims' stance, your denomination's stance, or your personal stance? What are their stances?

“This is a message from prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine Monastery

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”


That should say enough, to add credibility to my stance, here is an entire chapter from the Quran.

109:1 Surat al-kafiroon
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

Firstly, you've said that this is your belief on the matter, and implied that is is the Quran's stance as well. But as i asked before, what is the Muslim majority's opinion on it (what do most Muslims in the world think about this?), and what is your denomination's view?

Secondly, as i asked before: Why do Islamic nations have those laws (such as giving the death penalty for conversion from Islam)?

Thirdly, I understand that this is for Christians, but what about other religions such like Hinduism, and Buddhism? Polytheists and also, Atheists? (i know atheism is an absence of theism, but in this case, it is practical to regard it as a religion)

[absent air]

Thanks for answering; But i am unsure as to what this answer represents. Is this the Quran's stance, the majority of Muslims' stance, your denomination's stance, or your personal stance? What are their stances?

This is really hard to say. I live in a country with less than <3% Muslims, I'm a bit reluctant to answer this question since I do not have a clear view of what the majority would think of this. (my social circle consists Christians only). Perhaps someone in this forum might be able to give a worthy answer to this question. As for me, I'm just a helpless 19 year old student.

Secondly, as i asked before: Why do Islamic nations have those laws (such as giving the death penalty for conversion from Islam)?

If my memory does not fool me, the people that turn into another religion have to be questioned first by Islamic scholars, these scholars take note of their conversion and will try to change their mind. This will be done 3 times, if the person still doesn't want to return to Islam He or She will be free to go under these circumstances:

1: Do not practice your alternative religion openly
2: Never ever criticize Islam after you have left it. If you might be punished for it

That's as far as I know, but I would have no clue why on Earth they would put a death penalty on it.There is a major difference between a government and a religion itself. A slightly ironic separation of religion and state, If I may say so.

Thirdly, I understand that this is for Christians, but what about other religions such like Hinduism, and Buddhism? Polytheists and also, Atheists? (i know atheism is an absence of theism, but in this case, it is practical to regard it as a religion)

Idol-worship is condemned
all beings are equal
there is only 1 god

Hinduism is out of the question. Many things that Hinduism practices/believes in is condemned in Islam
Buddhism is about 60% the same as Islam, the differences lie in definition god, salvation and the concept of the world.

Polytheism is considered idol-worship, which is a major sin
Atheism is considered an even bigger sin than idol-worship, which means that these people are in a greater state of ''kufr''

The logic is that polytheism believes that there is a greater being than humankind, which Atheists neglect as well.

hope this helps, of to sleep now!