Liberty Or Security

[peterk]

Originally Posted by ionias

So then after "they" blow up nyc, then you'll give them the ok to wipe their asses with the constitution? For what? Once they do that, there wont be anything worth protecting anymore. The government isn't making us safer, it's just making more people want to kill us. Then of course they have to take away our freedoms for our protection because if they didn't, we might realize they're the ones putting us in danger with reckless, imperialist policies. I don't care what you're advocating because as long as people like you are willing to throw your freedom away, the government will do whatever the fuck it wants. And we pay the price.

Am I blaming America first? Possibly. It becomes America's fault when we stray from our ideals, or as Cheney put it "work the dark side". That is the point where America loses it's sainthood. That is when America ceases to be blameless.

Sounds like you want America to bend over, put it's head in the sand, and wait for the shaft. A few restrictions are nothing to get hysterical over. After all the constitution survived George Bush!

America seeks to be dominant but not to dominate any nation. There are no imperialist policies,if there were, there would be alliances of nations against us but that is not the case.

America never had any sainthood and it is idealist drivel to even talk about it.
What ideals are you talking about? The only ideal in foreign policy is pragmatism.

Cheney should have been president and not Bush.

[LemonSqueeze]

We must always seek liberty, but liberty encompasses a wide range of factors. Freedom from terror, violence, hunger, greed, malicious governments. Freedom to choose what to do in your life, freedom to challenge ideologies and traditions, freedom to self-actualise.

This both encompasses the notion of liberty and security.

I will repeat again, we need both.

[Nitou]

Originally Posted by peterk

Operation Ajax is a tired old Shibboleth. It happened right after the Korean War at the hight of the cold war. The Iranian theocrats need an enemy to stay in power and we are convenient. They hate us for what we are, not for what we did. Do actually think they are nostalgic to have that toppled regime back?

LOL @ the irony!!! The theocrats need enemies, yes, just like our government needs enemies to justify taking our rights away. Never mind that more Americans die from a lack of healthcare in a year than terrorists have killed in ten.

A tired old Shibboleth, Ajax is? Nonsense. Cause and effect, peterk. The fact is, we overthrew a democratically elected government for having the audacity to serve its own interests, and installed our own tyrranical puppet. For oil!! (cliché maybe, but true) How is it that you do not see why this is both morally and strategically wrong? It set the stage for current events today.

Something you blame-america-first types ignore with your hypercritical morality rants is that the world has some very bad actors and we need the CIA to do what is necessary to keep them in check.

No shite Sherlock! Commies, Nazis, Islamofascists... and I would like to add:

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." ~Friedrich Nietzsche

Why do you want the government to make America a monster? Why do you want America to make more enemies for the government to protect us from? Do you have stock in the military-industrial machine? Why do you hate America peterk?????

The left is not above stereotyping people, you throw the words racist and fascist around with regularity. I realize I am being politically incorrect in calling these people for what they are.

And Obama's an elitist fascist racist Nazi. More irony! You have a wonderful sense of humor sir.

Al-qaeda started as a response to the Saudi government allowing US troops to be stationed on Saudi soil. I think attacking girl's schools is more the handiwork of those other medieval Islamofascists the Taliban.

The US had a hand in creating both Al-Queda and Taliban.

[Nitou]

Originally Posted by Coffee Grinder

We must always seek liberty, but liberty encompasses a wide range of factors. Freedom from terror, violence, hunger, greed, malicious governments. Freedom to choose what to do in your life, freedom to challenge ideologies and traditions, freedom to self-actualise.

This both encompasses the notion of liberty and security.

I will repeat again, we need both.

Back to topic.
It is kind of a false dichotomy when you put it that way. The ultimate in "liberty" is anarchism, and the only ones who are free under anarchy are the strongest and the most ruthless.

[The Psychonaut]

Originally Posted by peterk

***Protecting the people is the goverment's primary responsibility however long it takes.

lololol go read the constitution fool, dont worry you wont have to do to much actual reading though, because in the first few paragraphs it clearly states that the purpose of government is to PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE CITIZENS

im sorry i got a little angry..but when someone claims to know what they are talking about and then proves otherwise so blatantly...i just turn green and rip my purple pants...

[kizoxef]

In our republic.. ideally I think government exists to serve the people.

[inservio uberfrau]

liberty over security, so that people have the liberty to organize into groups that support them in their interest, without coercion to deny that they have the right to free association

[Humilis Curator]

I can't believe this hasn't been posted yet but

"Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry

and yes, Benjamin Franklin was the coolest

[SeekJess]

Liberty... because im proud to be an American.

[timeless]

Liberty all the way. Security is usually just an excuse to steal liberty for the benefit of the wealthy.