Should Victimless Crimes Be Punished?

[RighteousRob]

Ok, I want to take this another direction. First state whether you believe there are even victimless crimes, and if so whether you believe they should be punished or not.

Some examples, and yes I know they may be flawed, but please do not point out the flaws in my examples, provide constructive feedback about what you believe are victimless crimes.

• Riding a motorcycle or bicycle without a helmet
• BASE jumping from city buildings
• Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs
• Driving a motor vehicle without a seatbelt
• Prostitution and/or soliciting for prostitution
• Public nudity and fornication
• The consumption of pornography (not involving children or coercion)

Victimless crimes usually regarded more seriously include:

• Abortion
• Unlicensed prizefights and similar activities of a sporting nature where the players consent and the audience actively approves of what they see.
• Assisting someone to die at his or her request.

These are some examples, there are more and some of these may be debated as to whether they are really victimless or not.

But still, should people only harming themselves be penalized for it?

[amanda32]

So I guess first off what constitutes a victimless crime.

• Riding a motorcycle or bicycle without a helmet (yes, if they are children)
• BASE jumping from city buildings (yes, you could land on sb. and kill them!)
• Individual purchase and consumption of recreational drugs (no)
• Driving a motor vehicle without a seatbelt (yes, if they are children)
• Prostitution and/or soliciting for prostitution (no)
• Public nudity and fornication (yes, children can see. Though public nudity at the beach is ok).
• The consumption of pornography (not involving children or coercion) (no)

Victimless crimes usually regarded more seriously include:

• Abortion (Hard one, I don't think partial birth abortions should be legal -- like in Canada you can abort a child even at 9 months, as long as the mother hasn't begun labour).
• Unlicensed prizefights and similar activities of a sporting nature where the players consent and the audience actively approves of what they see. (yes, because people can die or be badly hurt more so than at licensed events).
• Assisting someone to die at his or her request. (no, this should be legal if they are terminal and in pain).

[Grim]

I would say when compiling your list of crimes, dig a bit into them.

For instance... human trafficking is a worldwide trade that brings in roughly 40 Billion annually. The biggest market for the slaves is prostitution. Perhaps in Las Vegas where it is legal, all the women are working girls because they wish to be... but anywhere outside of that is questionable.

With drugs, if it was just the drugs perhaps there would be no problem. It is the environment it creates. Homes and automobiles that get broken into so people can pay for their fix. The costs of treating people who OD. Kids who see the behavior and get curious. Where there are drugs, there are avoidable deaths and ruined lives. Drugs and human trafficking also go hand in hand. Addition is a powerful leash.

Helmets and seat belts: This becomes a problem for several reasons. One... I dont want to see your brains splattered all over the highway as I drive fast. Perhaps I just ate. Two... someone has to clean that up, it probably wont be your mom, and that someone likes to get paid. They get paid in tax money... The real problem here is the false sense of security these things (devices) give people. The safer our vehicles, the more ridiculous people get behind the wheel.

Public nudity/fornication... I've seen accidents happen cause some fool rubbernecked to see a girl jog by in tight clothing... never mind fornication. There are exhibitions...

BASE jumping... people on the ground can't always see what the person is doing. 911 calls for suicides, mass-transit infrastructure clogged up by responders and gawkers. And if things go wrong... someone has to clean it up.

Abortion... this one is not ready to be labeled a victimless crime. Or even a crime at all. I think it will be a long time before can agree on what abortion even is.

Prizefighting... like a lot of other things it is the incidentals... the environment it brings, public service cleaning up the mess, medical care for the combatants, standards of conduct in the ring. The licensing of the legal venture requires things that are taken for granted. As with most things its those items that are taken for granted that cost others and create the victims.

Court time costs money and typically judges and law makers don't sit around making rulings on things for giggles... sure it can happen... but more likely is that these things have come up and it has been found there are victims, even if willing ones, and all to often it's the tax payer's dollar that fits the bill. Or the activities bring consequences down on people who took no involvement. Occasionally it's just a case of morality... and unfortunately for the one, it is the masses who make the rules.

[RighteousRob]

I was providing examples, the issue is with victimless crimes, the way you talk about it nothing is victimless. So if that's what you believe than fine, but if you look hard enough you will always find someone at fault or the possibility of someone becoming a victim.


Driving is a crime, because you run the risk of injuring someone else.

Speaking is a crime because you run the risk of agitating someone to violence.

Religion is a crime because it has caused deaths

Technology is a crime because it spreads other crimes



Just because there can be victims, doesn't mean things should be a crime.

[Grim]

Yup, that's exactly what I said.

On another note I must have done a great job disagreeing with you... cause it sure seemed to unsettle you.

[murderegina]

I don't think so...because if someone is stupid enough to put themselves in danger it shouldn't be the job of the world to babysit. Moreover, some of us like risks..so it's not fair. But hey.....does it matter anyway? Nope! Also, then if they legalized a few of the risky behaviors, then things like suicide attempts wouldn't require going to the hospital or anorexia. But then again, freedom isn't free. So if some of us want freedom, I guess it comes as the cost of those who couldn't handle being free.

[Grim]

Don't mistake me... I'm all for letting the idiot bleed to death on the sidewalk. Rain washes away brains. If that is how the world worked, fine by me. But it doesn't... people do babysit and clean up. And they get paid. Turn that off and let nature take its course for all I care.

Being able to present a valid reason and agreeing with any of it are two separate things. Wanting it to be different is a third.

[RighteousRob]

damnit, I thought I was editing and I made a new post, disregard this post if it pleases you.

[RighteousRob]

you know this statement of mine wasn't quite fair, so I am going to retract it.


But I am interested to know if people believe there are victimless crimes at all, that would be more useful input for me that pointing out flaws in my examples. thanks in advance.

[Grim]

Originally Posted by RighteousRob

you know this statement of mine wasn't quite fair, so I am going to retract it.


But I am interested to know if people believe there are victimless crimes at all, that would be more useful input for me that pointing out flaws in my examples. thanks in advance.

I'm glad to see this. My goal was not to rip apart your post... though looking at what I wrote I can see where you might think that.

As for if there are any such "crimes"; yes I think there are. I think people do often project fears onto reality and others, and set needless limits. I dislike being limited because a handful others could not conduct themselves responsibly. I'd love if the justice system would simply be there for those need and stay out of the way of others.

Ultimately I think it all hinges on personal responsibility more than anything else. Unfortunately when others do not have any, it causes inconvenience, hardship, and even at times death for others. I think what the current system does is attempt to mitigate risk more so than try to take away people's fun or freedom. As mentioned, driving assumes a risk. Not driving at all is an answer... but so are seat belts. It's a compromise. It is no easy task to find that sweet spot of mitigated assumed risk in all situations for all people. So blanket rules get put into place. The point I was making above that I think got missed is that if there is a law then the majority of the time a victim has been found... otherwise a ruling would not have taken place. For most of them I dont think you really have to dig all that hard, or look all that deep to find it.