Occupy Wall Street?

Originally Posted by Shahada

(economic inequality, lack of accountability for the financial class, declining wages, skyrocketing corporate profits, neverending unemployment, etc.)?

Everyone answers to someone. No one person can make a change for an entire company to act ethically... In fact, government regulations are almost set up to force large corporations to act in whatever way brings them the most profit. If they are allowed to take unfair business with the government, they will. Corporations in general act in their own best interests, but so long as there is competition in capitalism, that's usually a good thing for the consumer.

I don't believe in corporate person-hood either, but neither did the founding fathers. Corporate person-hood used to be something you had to get special permission to do, it was only for a short period of time, and it had to be ruled in the best interest of the people (e.g. for building roadways.)

So i'm a capitalist, but i don't believe in corporatism.

If a company and the individuals can be held accountable, they will do what is their own best interests, which is to be responsible, and profitable. As a general rule, they work predictably within the system.


It was the government that changed. It was the government that started allowing for companies to be granted corporate person-hood on a whim. It's the government that illegally does business with corporations and creates a similar effect to a monopoly in the health and education departments. It's the government that bails out corporations. It's the government that is taxing heavily directly, and through the inflation of our currency which causes jobs to move elsewhere (causing your unemployment.)

The businesses are the predictable ones. Blaming them, and being a nuisance to the businessmen (whom you should really want to be on your side) is not going to solve an issue that is caused by a runaway bureaucracy acting outside of it's constitutional abilities with a massively bloated and seemingly "infinite" "budget."

Instead of asking why all the money from bailouts went to corporate executives, maybe we should be asking why they had the luxury of excess money that was taken from my, and everyone else's paycheck.

Well that's all well and good I suppose, but you still haven't really explained specifically how these things caused the problems we're dealing with right now. Also you don't really seem to understand the legal concept of "corporate personhood" and are uninformed about other key aspects of your argument. For instance, there are no "government regulations" that force corporations to act in the best interests of their shareholders, unless you count a tradition of legal jurisprudence going back almost a century as "government regulation." There's also nothing illegal about corporations doing business with the government. In fact, there's nothing illegal about a lot of things corporations do exactly because they write the laws. Why do they write the laws? Because when you allow capital to accumulate and concentrate in just a few places, that's who is going to hold the political and economic power in a country. As long as you allow such senseless accumulation those with the wealth will manipulate the political process to their own benefit, and I don't really see any way of restricting this accumulation of capital that is compatible with either capitalism as it actually exists or your fairy tale capitalism that has never existed anywhere.

Originally Posted by Shahada

Well that's all well and good I suppose, but you still haven't really explained specifically how these things caused the problems we're dealing with right now. Also you don't really seem to understand the legal concept of "corporate personhood" and are uninformed about other key aspects of your argument. For instance, there are no "government regulations" that force corporations to act in the best interests of their shareholders, unless you count a tradition of legal jurisprudence going back almost a century as "government regulation." There's also nothing illegal about corporations doing business with the government. In fact, there's nothing illegal about a lot of things corporations do exactly because they write the laws. Why do they write the laws? Because when you allow capital to accumulate and concentrate in just a few places, that's who is going to hold the political and economic power in a country. As long as you allow such senseless accumulation those with the wealth will manipulate the political process to their own benefit, and I don't really see any way of restricting this accumulation of capital that is compatible with either capitalism as it actually exists or your fairy tale capitalism that has never existed anywhere.

Shahada:
Remember this: They have the money, but we have the votes. The key is that we must talk to everybody on the street, or should I say everybody whose sorry butt is not on the street and get them to be politically active. It is the 99% who have allowed this to happen by being Democratic on Voting day and Stupid and Uninvolved on the other days.
Regards,
Digger Blue

To be honest I don't think the solution to any of these problems are to be found through voting. The best the electoral process can do is stave off some of the damage that is inevitably going to come as long as the system remains intact.

Originally Posted by Shahada

To be honest I don't think the solution to any of these problems are to be found through voting. The best the electoral process can do is stave off some of the damage that is inevitably going to come as long as the system remains intact.

You can't even dream of toppling the current system without at least some good people being in semi-important positions to where they can spread the truth about issues, as it stands now no one person will change the system totally but anyone can educate people who can't think for themselves, in my opinion it starts there, otherwise the status-quo establishment zombie masses will ruin any effort to modify the system.. of course if you have a better course of action in mind we'll gladly listen.

The Oakland port officially SHUT DOWN.

Shit is getting intense down there!

Originally Posted by Paragon

The Oakland port officially SHUT DOWN.

Shit is getting intense down there!

Wow, I've been out of the loop today, this is fucking awesome.

Originally Posted by Shahada

Can you explain, specifically and in detail, how government spending and inflation are related to the problems the OWS movement is protesting about (economic inequality, lack of accountability for the financial class, declining wages, skyrocketing corporate profits, neverending unemployment, etc.)?

For one thing, an enormous chunk of that money went to the very businesses that put us in this spot in the first place. It also has a lot to do with the overseas spending in aid and wars. How do we pay for this? We print and borrow money. Where does that money go? Not to average individuals. So the average individual is having their total value diminished through inflation while these corporations and corrupt governments get the money that was the cause of that inflation. The idea that it's just Wall Street is a dumb one.

Originally Posted by mkeath

For one thing, an enormous chunk of that money went to the very businesses that put us in this spot in the first place. It also has a lot to do with the overseas spending in aid and wars. How do we pay for this? We print and borrow money. Where does that money go? Not to average individuals. So the average individual is having their total value diminished through inflation while these corporations and corrupt governments get the money that was the cause of that inflation. The idea that it's just Wall Street is a dumb one.

What "chunk of money" are you talking about specifically? The "government spending" I was talking about? Because libertarians don't usually like to refer to tax loopholes and tax giveaways to corporations as "government spending." If you're in support of instead using that "government spending" to provide a higher standard of living for average people then we are in agreement.

It also seems like the role of the financial sector on all of this is completely lost on you. Have you not noticed that the banks have pretty much bought out the government? Have you not noticed how many of their lobbyists write the laws? Obviously there are other problems besides Wall Street but you don't seem to understand to what degree they have usurped the political process and also how much power they have as a sector of economy with the huge degree of financialization of the world economy that has taken place in the last thirty years.

Originally Posted by Shahada

What "chunk of money" are you talking about specifically? The "government spending" I was talking about? Because libertarians don't usually like to refer to tax loopholes and tax giveaways to corporations as "government spending." If you're in support of instead using that "government spending" to provide a higher standard of living for average people then we are in agreement.

I am not saying that the government should do this at all. I was simply speaking to the context of your question. When the value of the dollar is decreased by increased supply, and that supply only goes overseas and to corporations, the capital value of assets on an individual level is decreased by default. If you increase inflation, and you give the increased money supply to one group and not the other, you are effectively redistributing the wealth. I would personally prefer to watch the banks burn by lack of government intervention and pick up the pieces from there. I don't necessarily mean not to have corrections in place, but those corrections should allow the survival of the victims rather than the perpetrators. Unfortunately, either way, we can't afford to make this not hurt. When one bank owns derivatives valued at 25% of the world GDP, there is no way to bail them or the people out because they are destined to fail. Bailouts only prolong the suffering.

It also seems like the role of the financial sector on all of this is completely lost on you. Have you not noticed that the banks have pretty much bought out the government? Have you not noticed how many of their lobbyists write the laws? Obviously there are other problems besides Wall Street but you don't seem to understand to what degree they have usurped the political process and also how much power they have as a sector of economy with the huge degree of financialization of the world economy that has taken place in the last thirty years.

Nothing is lost on me. I am just not looking for one enemy to blame. If politicians had never accepted the lobby money and acted responsibly, the banks would have no more power over the government than Bill's General Store at the corner of Main St. and A St.