The only reason left I can't accept Jesus

Originally Posted by Nicole Hobbs

Not to butt in, but my thought on the thing about God sacrificing Jesus is this...

God says that if you don't accept him you will burn forever in a place of torment (Hell).
Yet, Jesus didn't even have to spend his 3 days or whatever in Hell when he was crucified.

So, how is that just payment, when we would have to spend an eternity in hell, yet Jesus did not?

How is it still "payment" of our sins, if it's not the full price? Is Jesus somehow special because he happens to be "God's Son" and get an easier pass?

Just a few questions, sorry if it isn't on topic.

I'll answer these. As you've worded and defined it, it's understandably confusing and seemingly makes no sense.

The trick here is to understand what's happening with the souls of faithful vs. those who actively revel in negative activities.

God says that if you don't accept him you will burn forever in a place of torment (Hell).

You have to understand what Hell is first. There are people living on this Earth who find themselves in living Hell. Hell after death may be seen as similar to those circumstances.

Hell is a condition of existence, rather than a jail one is confined in. In my late teens I was very depressed and found myself in a living Hell, despite the circumstances of my life not being that bad at all. No one but me imposed that state of Hell upon myself... it was of my own creation and doing.

Such is the nature of Hell after death. God says you'll experience this, not because it is imposed by Him, but rather a soul has acted in such a way in life, that Hell is their spiritual awareness upon death. They find themselves in an unhappy spiritual state, and without having faith in God, are unable to free themselves from it.

Now, you have to understand that since God created everything, that yes, part of that creation has caused this painful state to exist. If say, God did not create us as we are, then yes, Hell would also not exist. Yet Hell wasn't created by God directly... it was created by those who were created in the image of God (meaning we're spirit in nature, and with that comes power).

Through our delusion that we are separate from God, and that we act alone, that we are ego, and not at peace in Him, we've manifested Hell... because to be at peace in Him with complete faith is alleviation from all burdens. One might still have "problems" in life, but those problems become light difficulties when one turns to Him.

I'll also say that I believe in reincarnation and karma. Someone in a state of Hell after death is not trapped there eternally... the state of eternal hell exists only for those who reject God eternally. Yet the nature of reality is designed in such a way that souls naturally seek God because that's how we manifest our greatest fulfillment.

I see all of creation as we know it being dissolved back into God in the end... and then through him creation is manifested in new ways... infinite realities permuted beyond this cosmos.

Yet, Jesus didn't even have to spend his 3 days or whatever in Hell when he was crucified.

So, how is that just payment, when we would have to spend an eternity in hell, yet Jesus did not?

Jesus died for our sins, in the sense that accepting Jesus into your heart awakens your higher spiritual nature which begins to dissolve the bondage of your past activities.

I think any Christian would agree that sin still exists in this world... and that even people who believe in Jesus can sin. So obviously, he didn't die to rid us of sin, but rather beat a path toward a higher spiritual state which is within our grasp... one where we can better our natures and avoid the after-life suffering that might have otherwise awaited us.

How is it still "payment" of our sins, if it's not the full price? Is Jesus somehow special because he happens to be "God's Son" and get an easier pass?

You have to understand the spiritual state Jesus had attained after he was in the forest for 40 days and 40 nights. It took him many incarnations to reach a state in which he could return to us to help bring us closer to God. Not all souls do this... many if not most find God and dissolve into his bliss, Nirvana. Some, however, choose to come back and bring as many as they can into His Glory. This is why Jesus's birth was something special.

Yet a child must still grow up as a child, they're not necessarily prepared for the task at hand until they're an adult... this is why Jesus had to go into the forest for 40 days and 40 nights. When he returned, he had fully awakened his true nature.

The true nature of a Christ lacks any ego, rather they've destroyed it to become vessels of God. Their minds lack delusion, and are crystal clear in terms of acting with spiritual dharma. When one has attained such a state, sin does not exist as part of their activity because every decision they make is guided by the hand of God. One in such a state, upon death, will evaporate into God... but still exist as a divine Christ which God can call upon to do His work.

The pathway to Heaven has always been clear for such people of high spiritual nature... in fact, they go to realms beyond where people like I will go.

Yet when a person of Jesus's being goes to God, one can attune themselves to Jesus's nature, and use that as their avenue. The thought of Jesus radiates positive energy, and that's something his followers can attune themselves to and transcend their bondage.

Originally Posted by InsanityRemix

Offer advice to those who need it while figuring out how to help spread the awareness of the human ego and how it is corrupt and easy to manipulate. What I plan on doing is either making people happy through the desserts I will make, or fixing the way we eat, steering away from processed and genetically modified foods, with the meals I will make. My success will be determined the day I die.

Wait, I'm asking what processes you do involving people that makes you feel loving. Are you saying giving to others makes you happy? If so, then that love you speak of is found in my religions, whether taken literally or not, it doesn't really matter, if that love is the goal, then the ends justify the means as long as that love remains altruistic.

In short, there is no way to be evilly altruistic by one's own individual standards. So the most we can say is that gods or goddesses or God etc... in whatever respect we look at it, is good if it brings love and bad if it brings the opposite, I suppose..

Originally Posted by Razare

I'll answer these. As you've worded and defined it, it's understandably confusing and seemingly makes no sense.

The trick here is to understand what's happening with the souls of faithful vs. those who actively revel in negative activities.



You have to understand what Hell is first. There are people living on this Earth who find themselves in living Hell. Hell after death may be seen as similar to those circumstances.

Hell is a condition of existence, rather than a jail one is confined in. In my late teens I was very depressed and found myself in a living Hell, despite the circumstances of my life not being that bad at all. No one but me imposed that state of Hell upon myself... it was of my own creation and doing.

Such is the nature of Hell after death. God says you'll experience this, not because it is imposed by Him, but rather a soul has acted in such a way in life, that Hell is their spiritual awareness upon death. They find themselves in an unhappy spiritual state, and without having faith in God, are unable to free themselves from it.

Now, you have to understand that since God created everything, that yes, part of that creation has caused this painful state to exist. If say, God did not create us as we are, then yes, Hell would also not exist. Yet Hell wasn't created by God directly... it was created by those who were created in the image of God (meaning we're spirit in nature, and with that comes power).

Through our delusion that we are separate from God, and that we act alone, that we are ego, and not at peace in Him, we've manifested Hell... because to be at peace in Him with complete faith is alleviation from all burdens. One might still have "problems" in life, but those problems become light difficulties when one turns to Him.

I'll also say that I believe in reincarnation and karma. Someone in a state of Hell after death is not trapped there eternally... the state of eternal hell exists only for those who reject God eternally. Yet the nature of reality is designed in such a way that souls naturally seek God because that's how we manifest our greatest fulfillment.

I see all of creation as we know it being dissolved back into God in the end... and then through him creation is manifested in new ways... infinite realities permuted beyond this cosmos.



Jesus died for our sins, in the sense that accepting Jesus into your heart awakens your higher spiritual nature which begins to dissolve the bondage of your past activities.

I think any Christian would agree that sin still exists in this world... and that even people who believe in Jesus can sin. So obviously, he didn't die to rid us of sin, but rather beat a path toward a higher spiritual state which is within our grasp... one where we can better our natures and avoid the after-life suffering that might have otherwise awaited us.




You have to understand the spiritual state Jesus had attained after he was in the forest for 40 days and 40 nights. It took him many incarnations to reach a state in which he could return to us to help bring us closer to God. Not all souls do this... many if not most find God and dissolve into his bliss, Nirvana. Some, however, choose to come back and bring as many as they can into His Glory. This is why Jesus's birth was something special.

Yet a child must still grow up as a child, they're not necessarily prepared for the task at hand until they're an adult... this is why Jesus had to go into the forest for 40 days and 40 nights. When he returned, he had fully awakened his true nature.

The true nature of a Christ lacks any ego, rather they've destroyed it to become vessels of God. Their minds lack delusion, and are crystal clear in terms of acting with spiritual dharma. When one has attained such a state, sin does not exist as part of their activity because every decision they make is guided by the hand of God. One in such a state, upon death, will evaporate into God... but still exist as a divine Christ which God can call upon to do His work.

The pathway to Heaven has always been clear for such people of high spiritual nature... in fact, they go to realms beyond where people like I will go.

Yet when a person of Jesus's being goes to God, one can attune themselves to Jesus's nature, and use that as their avenue. The thought of Jesus radiates positive energy, and that's something his followers can attune themselves to and transcend their bondage.

Thank you for such a well-thought out response! It definitely gave me something to think about, though I've also been confused also about several things in the Christian religion, but I won't bore you with them!

Woo this thread....yeah, it's interesting for sure. I like reading everyone's posts--it's interesting to see how different people view this topic. And it's fun to see how different personality types reason, debate, and write. Very neat!

@Razare

I have a couple of questions after reading your most recent post; I hope you don't mind.

You reckon hell is something humans create for themselves, then? Does God get any say in who will experience hell and who won't?

From what you wrote I am confused: do people experience hell because they haven't dealt with their ego yet, or do they experience it because they reject God? You mention both; do you reckon them to be the same thing?

You say that souls 'naturally seek God'. What do you mean by that? What is it 'to seek God'? What specific thoughts or actions qualify as such?

You also write that Jesus spend time in the forest. Do you mean the time he spend in the wilderness - which is usually translated as 'desert' - or did I miss out on the latest interpretation of the Greek original? You mention that after this experience, Jesus became an adult. This confuses me, because from what I understand Jesus was at least 30 years old at that time and had been considered an adult since he was 13 or so by Jewish standards.

As for finding his purpose in life, after his return from Egypt, didn't he dismiss his mother's claims at the age of twelve, stating that 'he had to be in his Father's house'? It seems to me Jesus received some sort of an education during his time Egypt - which doesn't surprise me, because the Christian doctrine is filled with (fragments of) Egyptian religious doctrine.

Finally, with your general attitude in mind, I would like to know whether you consider yourself to be Christian or more of a spiritual person?

Originally Posted by Souled In

That makes sense as far as loving the universe, and knowledge. What do you do to love people?

I spend plenty of time alone so I have a reason, a certain need for people again. What about you?

Originally Posted by LookingGlass

You can't have it both ways imo. It's either all allegorical or all literal. It's a cop out. But if these things didn't happen, then the whole bible doesn't make sense and you might as well say none of it happened in reality.

I think you are half right. As @La Li Lu Le Lo said, the books of the bible are of different genres. I would like to emphatically add to that, that the books of the bible are of different writers, of different time periods and of different geological places! In my opinion it takes deliberate faith to consider the collection as a singular book with a singular message.

Salomon's Song of Songs, for instance, is in my opinion neither allegorical nor authoritative. It is a poem about making love. Then again, I think you are right when it comes to making different claims as to the contents of one particular book. The writer of e.g. Genesis either intended to be truthful or 'colorful'. I think it is a safe assumption to go with colorful on that one.

I think it is useful to keep the bigger picture in mind. When comparing religions, I understand that most religions account for how this world came to be. Since no human beings were present at the time, I think it is safe to say that all religious accounts are imaginative or drug induced - or both.

I'll just leave this here...

Originally Posted by Bear987

@Razare

I have a couple of questions after reading your most recent post; I hope you don't mind.

You reckon hell is something humans create for themselves, then? Does God get any say in who will experience hell and who won't?

That's beyond my comprehension because of who I understand God to be... but I'll try...

When one fully realizes their spiritual nature, they are no different than God... that is to say, they enter into his infinite sea and are fully one with it.

Why do we have the power to create our own hell? Because we were made in the image of God... that which is Spirit.

From what you wrote I am confused: do people experience hell because they haven't dealt with their ego yet, or do they experience it because they reject God? You mention both; do you reckon them to be the same thing?

Yes they are the same thing to me.

Intellectually knowing there is a God is vastly different than having faith in God. Belief is not faith in my view. One is something the brain does, while the other is something the soul does.

Therefore, one could have complete faith in God, without ever having that concept entered into their brain.

You say that souls 'naturally seek God'. What do you mean by that? What is it 'to seek God'? What specific thoughts or actions qualify as such?

Do you want to be happy? And I'm not talking about a jovial happiness... bliss is a better word maybe.

It's not the sort of happiness and contentment which comes and goes, it's the sort that remains irrelevant of how bad or fantastic your life is.

You also write that Jesus spend time in the forest. Do you mean the time he spend in the wilderness - which is usually translated as 'desert' - or did I miss out on the latest interpretation of the Greek original?

No sorry, you're correct. Whenever I have read it, my Michigan-born mind imagines a forest as anywhere in the wilderness here is forest.

You mention that after this experience, Jesus became an adult. This confuses me, because from what I understand Jesus was at least 30 years old at that time and had been considered an adult since he was 13 or so by Jewish standards.

Let me go read what I wrote, it was a while ago....

Yes, I think that's what happened according to the account in the Bible. That's why he lived an ordinary life prior to the wilderness event, but from there he was changed. I'm not saying he became an adult that day I'm just saying he was different afterward.

I'll retract the idea that Christ Consciousness could not be present in a child... It's possible if God deems it so, but generally the cases I've heard of, happen to adults. For example, Buddha's enlightenment. Because of this pattern, I hold a general belief that such Christ consciousness isn't bestowed upon children, but rather developed/bestowed later in life... but I wont preclude it's possible.

As for finding his purpose in life, after his return from Egypt, didn't he dismiss his mother's claims at the age of twelve, stating that 'he had to be in his Father's house'? It seems to me Jesus received some sort of an education during his time Egypt - which doesn't surprise me, because the Christian doctrine is filled with (fragments of) Egyptian religious doctrine.

I do not hold the Bible as 100% accurate in a literal sense, as I am certain some of the parts are allegorical... thus the truth is in the lesson and not the details. So I'd be willing to entertain he went to Egypt for eduction if there's evidence to support such, but I'm not versed on Egyptian religion and how it correlates to Christian religion.

Finally, with your general attitude in mind, I would like to know whether you consider yourself to be Christian or more of a spiritual person?

I identify with God, the one truth.

Doctrine only serves as a mechanism to explain and develop spiritual connection with God. In this way, I see uniformity underlying most world religions. So I have no problem saying I am Christian, even if other Christians would disagree... I have no problem saying I am Hindu (monotheistic, modern sort)... I generally wouldn't say I followed other religions not because I do not, but because I wont claim to understand their doctrine well enough to belong. As with any religion comes the intellectual tools they use, and without knowing it, I cannot belong... even if I really do.

@Razare

I like how you 'do something' with the notion that we are made in the image of god. There are certain parts in a lot of religious or philosophical texts that immediately convince me of their truthfulness or usefulness, even though I often realize that I do not understand what is meant specifically. In my opinion, the remark that we are created in the image of god says something meaningful and very important about us - even though I don't know quite what. So, thanks for giving me something to think about.

Your Michigan 'wilderness = forest' attitude made me smile. The idea of a 30 BC Christ wandering in a Michigan forest is ... well it amuses me in a totally innocent way.