DJArendee

As some of us know, I'm a socionics buff. Please don't think I'm crazy, and don't immediately dismiss what I have to say.

Its strange because, as you learn socionics, you eventually start to realize its the same exact system as MBTI. ISFJ = ISFj, ISTj = ISTJ, ENFJ = ENFj, etc.

The disconnect comes in the functions.

The socionics ISTj is very militarylike, orderly, stubborn, etc. Ti dominant with aggressive secondary Se. According to mbti, this would be ISTP.

Yet lets focus on the behaviors. the ISTJ's on this forum have an overall tendency to keep to themselves. The ISTP's on the other hand are more prone to call out logical inconsistencies in others' behavior. This is primarily a Te trait. (for example, ESTJ's and ENTJ's tend to tell everyone else when they're wrong in some respect.)

Socionics would list Si doms as constantly striving to maintain their aesthetic equillibrium, while Ne doms are constantly searching for chaos or new stimulation and experiences.

Socionics ISTp = Si Te dominant. This means they strive for an aesthetic equilibrium (Si) and get frustrated when it is ruined. Throw a stink bomb in an ISTp's house and he will FLIP A SHIT! When commenting on art, an ISTp I knew once said, "I like how its painted on wood." This demonstrates an appreciation for sensing the qualities of an object external to themself. This, I've always attributed to Se, when in fact it is Si processing the sensory data of an object. To look at something and FEEL its qualities in your mind would designate an internal appreciation for sensory data.

ISFJ in both socionics and mbti are regarded as rather difficult to deal with. Go visit the ISFJ forum sometime and search for some complaints about stereotypes of ISFJ's and you'll often find they are considered stubborn, mean, blunt, and assertive. The same exact stereotype applies to socionics ISFj's.

Quick note about ISFj's, they're the dual of the ENTj. As an ENTj I've always looked for a woman who was considered a "bitch" by many, because it means I can tell her to go drink bleach, and she'll probably think its funny. So what one personality sees as bad, another sees as good. Take a note, I love ISFJ's.

Regardless, for most of the personalities, I've come to realize socionics and mbti are exactly the same when it comes to the BEHAVIORAL STEREOTYPES of the personalities, not so much the functions. What is the disconnect? The disconnect is somewhere in MBTI, because the introverts' behaviors don't seem to match with the functional descriptions of how they should behave. A socionics ISTj is a Ti dominant personality. Ti dominance in socionics means forming orderly systems of data in your mind that is subjective to yourself. So, a Ti dom is more prone to thinking up a solution on their own, then making sure the external world fits in with this solution. The Ti dom will do its own thing, make its own rules, and say "F the system I do what I want!" Meanwhile, the Te doms view the rules as obstructions that should not be tampered with. in a sense, Te doms are masters of finding loopholes and escape routes in systems. Ever meet an ESTJ in the military? They'll tell you how great they are and how they follow all of the rules, then you'll see them secretly doing their own thing and doing something that violates the intended purpose of the rules. They can sometimes be viewed as hypocritical leaders for this if they don't keep it in check.

So with this value of finding loopholes and established rules then being rebellious against them, its really hard to say how ISTP and ISTJ's are different or where the logical inconsistency lies.

ISTJs are rule makers. ISTP's are rebellious rule breakers. This flips the whole Te Ti mbti stereotypes on its head, making the Te users rebellious, and the Ti users conformist (Ti appreciation implies Fe appreciation as well, which is the epitome of conformity).

Defining Te as "searching for loop holes and rebelling against the system" and Ti as "Making sure you find a place in the world where you agree with the rules (and in essense making Ti users in a single cohort to be forcibly conformist)" lets take a look at the extroverts.

ENFP's are rebellious. If you argue with me you're wrong. They use Te. They know the rules in place, and know how to step around the rules without violating them. This is why they're able to make passive aggressive comments against me and piss me off to no end in this forum but never get banned for their bullshit. A talent that must be recognized.

ENTP's on the other hand, are not known to be rebellious. They may be chaotic and argumentative, but not rebellious per say. They use their Ti to form their own opinions and systems, then will argue these systems with others in debate. Often times I find myself thinking, "where the F*** did this guy pull this out of? What established facts does he have to back up his statements?" The ENTP's will gravitate toward a system they all agree upon.

ISTP's are supposed to be stubborn and stuck in ruts with no new experiences. ISTJ's are supposed to be orderly and militaristic.

But if you read the function descriptions, how does this make any sense? It should be the OPPOSITE.

Why all ISTP's should be ISTJ's:
Ti: thinking about something from multiple angles to find the logical inconsistency.
Se: Being aware of surroundings in rich detail.

Do ISTP's actually think of things from all angles, or just their own? In arguing with them they have not once taken my view into consideration, much as I probably have not taken theirs into consideration either. Are ISTP's actually richly aware of their surroundings? Take a look at the ESTP experiencers. They're out and about experiencing life. ISTP's don't do that. They get stuck in ruts and do very little for long periods of time.

Why all ISTJ's should be ISTP's:
Si: Storing information and experiences and linking them with past experience. Recalling information.
Te: Planning, following others' logic.

You'll notice that Te makes it so you can follow someone else's logic. yet for some reason ISTJ's are known to be stubborn and narrow minded when their personality description says nothing of the sort, but does so for ISTP's? (sorry for the negative stereotype). That doesn't seem to make sense to me. The ISTP's are supposed to be stubborn walking encyclopedias who are critical of everyone else's ideas, right? Or is that ISTJ's? I'm starting to confuse myself now.

What are your thoughts?