Personality Cafe banner

The Field of Extroverted Feeling, from an outside perspective.

53K views 371 replies 47 participants last post by  ENTPreneur 
#1 ·
Today I want to examine this thing called Extroverted Feeling (Fe).
Under the model of Myers Briggs this is a judgment function.

I will hereby pick it apart and examine it from an outside perspective.
I myself does not use this function naturally, at least according to theory.

Fe has to do with declarations of relationships.
Every statement and action is viewed as a declaration of some sort of
allegiance to a relationship or a dismissal of a relationship.
This can be towards an individual or group.

Since not all individuals are aware of this overt focus on declarations
of intent in relations towards other human individuals or groups this can easily
create confusion and conflict.

Concepts like morals and norms are both Fe derived.

Morals has to do with what is perceived as right and wrong. An external
manifestation of a groups way of life. To break the moral code would
be a declaration that the individual dismiss the group that the morals
belong to.

Norms are similar, but are a more detailed version of morals.
Instead of being a this is right period, this is wrong period.
It operates through this is the expected behavior in this situation
and this is the expected behavior in this other situation.
Norms are more fluent and not as rigorously policed as morals.

Ethics are our current understanding of what the repercussions of
having morals and norms are.

Laws also come into play here, but are not solely the domain of Fe,
though it have had a significant influence in this area, it is not it's sole creator.

When Fe is applied it works trough a sort of role play. Every time it is
invoked the person in question has to either reject or accept the role
offered and by proxy the individual or group that the role symbolizes.
Some individuals are more aware of this than others. The ones aware of
this accept or reject roles according to the groups or individuals they
feel connected to and the form of connection they feel they have with
this group or individual without fail. Some lack Fe to the extent that
they doesn't see this as clearly. They therefore may not even be aware of that their actions carry any meaning to anyone else.

This creates problems, especially when some people believe that they shouldn't have to play this social role play, but be left to their own
devices, since they find the trappings of Fe smothering.
Because Fe demands adjustment of behavior. If you don't comply you are
sort of declaring war in a tribal sense.

Fe does not like separateness, Fe is unity.

So naturally religions, labor unions and many other ideologies spring
up to enforce this unity.
Other individuals who value separateness create other entities to counter these forces. These entities focus on individualism, Fe's counter.

Since Fe is hung up on unity it has a hard time separating, my emotions
from your emotions.
So if you feel bad, I feel bad. If you feel happy, I feel happy.
This is only if you belong to the same group.
If a complete stranger or foreign group expresses emotions the results are often reversed.

That leads us to prejudice. This is a label put on any foreign group or
individual that does not comply with the accepted morals or norms that
Fe has created in your own group.

In Fe the individual must give way for the collective good.
It is expected that the individual accommodate everyone else according
to morals and norms. For this purpose there are social graces
that everyone are expected to adhere to to be accepted within most groups.

Social graces:
Being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate.

To what degree and in what form these are applied changes from group to group
and is often a telltale sign that someone does or doesn't belong in the group.

There is so much more to say about Fe,
but I think this will do nicely for now.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Great article. Serves as a reminder to stay as far away from Fe users as possible :p

I was wondering, though, is Fe only manifested in social situations? I often feel a strong emotional reaction to music, movies, etc. and I've assumed it's been Fi - but is it possible it could be my inferior Fe kicking in?
 
#3 ·
Think of Fe like an invisible forcefield.
Whenever two people meet they both project this force field (Fe),
to the extent that they believe/feel it is appropriate.

Forcefields:
1 degree: EXFJ
2 degree: IXFJ
3 degree: EXTP
4 degree: IXTP
5 degree: IXFP
6 degree: EXFP
7 degree: IXTJ
8 degree: EXTJ
 
#4 ·
You are very correct that for an Fe user it is about symbolic action that create bonding. Non-Fe-users who do not see the inherent symbolism in the actions of the Fe-user towards them often hurt the feelings of the Fe-user. I hope unintentionally. Also, as Fe is my "best" Feeling process (albeit tertiary) I really relate to that and have experienced a lot of hurt through dabblings with ISTJs and ENTJs, some whom I find extremely self centered and egoistic (generalizing). I have had to come to realize that some people just dot have that need nor understanding. They "do not return the favor" so to speak.... And are utterly surprised and unimpressed if you try to explain.

Also it is true that I have problems defining my own feelings... I cannot say that I strive for harmony at all cost... as an ENTP I am more for progress. But I really do consider and value the benefit of all and not how I as an individual can benefit from a situation. That is secondary.

Prejudice? Well.... I guess that Fe-users can be more susceptible to group-pressure, but otherwise I believe Judgement is the main perpetrator when it comes to prejudice.


So... good post, thank you.
 
#5 · (Edited)
This creates problems, especially when some people believe that they shouldn't have to play this social role play, but be left to their own
devices, since they find the trappings of Fe smothering.
Because Fe demands adjustment of behavior. If you don't comply you are
sort of declaring war in a tribal sense.
This is a prime example of why I really don't like a lot of Fe users, they take it upon them selves to make assumptions and create conflict based on their assumptions. No one should try to make people into something they're not. Often when they have made an assumption they aren't interested changing that assumption nor discussing it, all based on a feeling.

Of course this doesn't apply to all Fe users, my mother (ISFJ) usually have a very healthy Fe use. But I have experienced this countless of times and it's always with Fe users.

Perhaps a Fe users could explain this to me, what's with all these to me unfounded assumptions?
 
#6 ·
Perhaps a Fe users could explain this to me, what's with all these to me unfounded assumptions?
Hmmm. This sounds more like the common "everyone is like me and thinks like me"-trap, both from the proposed Fe-users and *ahem* you... Not saying it is, but it is the most difficult thing to realize that other person have differing POVs and come from completely different places . I would IMAGINE that it would be even harder for J-types since they focus on the ONE meaning and relate it to the self (Ni, Si etc). Or skip the last part.... we have already discussed that in another thread.

When I use Fe and "culture clash" against the ISTJs and the ENTJs, it is because I do stuff for them to show I care; That is how I show emotion if you will. In return (especially if not being careful about the beforenamed trap) I believe that they will return the favors in the way that they can and in a situation/time when they have the opportunity to do so. If such never arises I never expect anything of course... But they dont see it this way.

One ISTJ fiercely resist any "help" and insisted I shouldnt give him any work just beacause he is my friend. I honestly said that it was beyond my power to factor that out (and to me it was a non-issue; of course you help friends out). He felt in "debt".. and asked me about this... I said "Well.. yes of sorts if you will... But only if you get the opportunity to repay any kindness; Then I would expect it. Never otherwise". That is how we clashed...

Otherwise I dont really see any such "unfounded assumptions" with Fe (apart from "return the favor if you can" or " Realize the importance of why I do this to you" as stated above). many say Fe is shallow and untrue, but I dont know... Fe mimics. It is the mirror neurons function; The empathy function.... But it works without deeper thought so I guess that is why Fe-users can seem shallow. We are effected by other peoples moods and expect other people to do so in return; using information thus gained to benefit the other and THUS yourself in the process.
 
#7 ·
I discussed some of my thoughts on this in this thread:

http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/50264-your-experience-fe-users.html



I've noticed that NTJ's seem to have a bigger problem with Fe than any other types. The reason why might be kind of summed up in a description of Fe users in Lenore Thompson's book...I mentioned this in that thread:

EFJ's will deny negative thoughts or opinions for the sake of social harmony, particularly if the category of relationship warrants this strategy. Such denial strikes them as the better part of valor.

Thinking types, with their penchant for impersonal accuracy, regard the whole business of tailoring truth to the category of relationship as dishonest--and more than a little irrational. But of course, TJ's spend most of their lives trying to separate their judgment from degrees of relationship. For EFJ's, right and wrong behaviors can't be determined until the category of relationship is established. To behave otherwise strikes them as dishonest and irrational.




I tend to think that NTJ's have a problem with Fe because they don't have a need for what Fe does. INTJ's in particular are a very independent type that don't seem to have needs to unify together. I think ENTJ's are kind of like that too, but they're more involved in controlling things than INTJ's are.


I honestly don't see Fe users as wanting to create conflict, and they may not even be aware of conflicts they are creating. They probably view the same situations as them reducing conflicts. This is probably especially true if they don't interact with NTJ's very often. In addition, if someone knows nothing about type, then they probably have a tendency to assume that a lot of people have something in common with themselves, particularly if the majority of people they know are similar to themselves.



To me, it really boils down to the same thing as a lot of these situations do...and that's that people have to realize that others have natural preferences that will make their drive and reason for living completely different than one another. Both sides can and should make an effort to understand how others are different, and to make the necessary compromises in order to get along or work together. If not, the only other option is for them to either never spend time together or to be miserable when they are together.
 
#11 ·
I honestly don't see Fe users as wanting to create conflict, and they may not even be aware of conflicts they are creating. They probably view the same situations as them reducing conflicts. This is probably especially true if they don't interact with NTJ's very often. In addition, if someone knows nothing about type, then they probably have a tendency to assume that a lot of people have something in common with themselves, particularly if the majority of people they know are similar to themselves.
I don't think it's about Fe creating conflict. I think it's about friction - A group of strong Fe users will probably work well together, and they will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because that's what they are aiming for. They'll accomplish stuff - maybe not in the most efficient and successful way possible, but hey, they are having a really good time together, and they are an awesome team sharing a great social bond.

A group of strong Te users will also work well together. They will have harmony and a great social atmosphere, because they are equally uninterested in eachother, and equally focused on objectively solving the actual problems at hand. They will accomplish things together and they will be happy and enjoy working together because progress is made.

There's simply no friction and no conflict of interest in these cases.

Problems develop when there's a mix between strong Fe-users and strong Te-users, who are supposed to work together as a group and accomplish something. The Fe-users will form solutions based on the opinions of the people involved, and these opinions may be unpractical and inefficient - But at least everyone can agree that's how it's supposed to be done. And it will be fun doing it.

Here, the Te-users will be inclined to disagree, to create huge amounts of conflict and to, if that's what's needed, bulldoze their way into an iron handed dictator role, neglecting the opinions of everyone if they can see an objectively better solution than "the stupid sheeple who don't know what's good for them".

Here, conflict forms out of the friction of interest. The Fe-users will see the Te-users as harmony-breakers and arrogant know-it-alls who are totally careless, insensitive, bull-headed, uncompromising and ignorant of what people want. The Te-users will see the Fe-users as slippery, stupid, group thinking populist idiots who are fundamentally incapable of rational thinking.

And then it's pretty much a situation of war. The Te-users start to see the Fe-users as road blocks and liabilities on the path to progress, while the Fe users start to see the Te-users as perpetual and unyielding sources of conflict and battle.

It's not that Fe creates conflict. And neither does Te. It's the combination that simply does not function very well.
 
#28 ·
Bearing in mind that I'm not an EFJ or Fe expert, I did go back and read some of those sections in Lenore Thompson's book, and I ran across a few lines that are in line with my general statements in the last post.

Unlike ETJs, however, the EFJ's primary focus of attention is people. These types are not only energized by their relationships; they need peoples' opinions and reactions in order to make objective decisions. Accordingly, EFJs spend a fair amount of time in conversation--exchanging observations, getting feedback, offering advice, volleying plans and ideas.

It is this broad range of social interactions that separates EFJs from IFJs, although some of their behaviors look similar. IFJs experience themselves as helpers or nurturers, and they're guided by the immediate needs of the people around them. They tend to resist social leadership, particularly the onus of making decisions for a group, but will take a great deal of authority in a service position.

EFJs, by contrast, experiences themselves as coordinators who can anticipate and handle the needs that arise in the normal interplay of established relationships with others. This is what makes EFJs so good at careers in sales, teaching and group motivation. They have no doubt that their way of organizing a situation will benefit all concerned, and they're good at making decisions and delegating tasks as required.

lirulin said:
So it's basically that they don't/can't just deal with a problem as it is in the present? All that past data "I'm not guilty" drowns out the current situation & leads to "well, the other person must be"? Or is it not seeing it as a problem - external reality - to be solved, but it has to be a personal problem for one or the other person - and if it isn't repeated it couldn't be their personal problem - and it's limited to only looking at it as a personal problem? So the fact that the event/miscommunication/problem occurred doesn't matter, the problem as in the disagreement/fight/miscommunication... only its reflection on the self?
Again, it's hard for me to comment since I'm not a dominant Fe user, but I think what takes prominence is the relationship between the people rather than the conflict itself. I don't know if it's necessarily that the reflection of self is the most important thing, but the relationship between both people is. And because this kind of conflict may only be occurring in this one relationship instead of most of the ones the Fe user is in, they probably tend to think by default that at least more of the problem is occurring because of the other person.



lirulin said:
And that would be why I run screaming from EFJs. Even IFJs though, can appear quite domineering/bullying if they haven't developped more understanding of others. And TPs. Again, you know I think you have developped more understanding, so this isn't an attack.
Well, it's like we've said before....if no one has any knowledge of something like the MBTI, they probably won't be as likely to understand how others are different.

I will say that the Fe user probably doesn't view themselves as being pushy or bullying, they probably believe they are helping. So just like a feeler can be hurt by a comment that a thinker doesn't mean to be hurtful, an NTJ might be bothered by an EFJ's attempt that the EFJ didn't intend to be bothersome. It all boils down to communication between people and understanding one another.



lirulin said:
Honestly, it seems like it doesn't even occur to them most of the time. My little sister does (ENFJ) (well, with me, but not an INFP friend of mine), but then she has social anxiety. Never met another who could back off before driving the other party into a miserable rage after having their boundaries repeatedly steamrollered. But sure, it's possible they exist and this happens. I live in hope.
Well, I think this goes back to some of the Thompson quotes I just mentioned. I think the Fe user most likely believes they are either improving a situation or that nothing will be able to get done until a group consensus is reached.

And I know I'm repeating myself again, but that's why it probably takes consistent communication from the NTJ side to explain to the Fe user how they are different and that the Fe user's actions are only causing stress and frustration. Considering most Fe users probably know nothing about the MBTI, this idea will probably be foreign to them at first.
 
#29 ·
And I know I'm repeating myself again, but that's why it probably takes consistent communication from the NTJ side to explain to the Fe user how they are different and that the Fe user's actions are only causing stress and frustration. Considering most Fe users probably know nothing about the MBTI, this idea will probably be foreign to them at first.
What is most important is that understanding is a two-way street. As much as it's all lovely to say the NTJ is the one who has to communicate, you can't just dump the responsibility on one side, the Fe user has to listen. And the assumptions that are the problems in the first place, get in the way of talking about any issues with those assumptions. You saw that in the other thread - I asked about communication issues, what was going on, and got attacked and accused of all kinds of crazy things according to the patterns predicted by the communication issues I was trying to discuss. Meta-misunderstanding. It's not that easy.

Frankly, I have never been able to communicate any of these ideas to those who aren't already trying to work on their blind spots. I just get accused of various nasty things. And I don't think there is anything I can do to make a person choose to take the route of self-improvement and wider understanding, nor would it be my right to make them. That's up to the Fe user. If they remain comfortable in their biases, I will remain with the run screaming tactic - the most I will do is discuss issues on a forum where some may read it but that's as much for me as for anyone else. It's their responsibility to read them, their choice. I don't have a compulsion to improve them, nor would I consider it right to push someone like that - I will just ensure, to the best of my ability, that they do not hurt me. People who already are interested in learning, sure I will provide information if they ask me.
 
#32 ·
ENTP=3rd place in forcefield table... OK.

Fe-users seem like mindless sheep in this thread.... But I think it is heavy generalizations, and I cant say that I relate to all that is written in this thread. Could be because Fe is inferior and I am a T -user perhaps.... Here goes a try to explain the motivation and intent of the Fe-user trying to "enforce" their concern/help on a victim:

Well, can we agree that you sometimes dont know what is best for you? That stuff that are outside your comfy zone sometimes are beneficial to you, and that doing stuff that you are afraid of actually can teach you things and be rewarding? Be experiences you never wish to be without as you think about them afterwards? Some here say that Fe users misinterpret stuff as personal attacks etc. This baffles me... Rather, not returning some form of "correct" response might create friction. I just dont recognize this.
Enlighten me please... Is this really an Fe thing or is it general F vs T?

If you look at it that way, but from inside another persons brain looking at you. What do they see? They might see someone in need of some assistance, but know that the person is too stubborn/proud/stupid/whatever to ask for it or realize it. An Fe user would then offer - or probably even DO - what they "see" as beneficial to the other person. Because, to them, to make the other person happy will make themselves happy as well. And I would say that it goes for all humans to some degree, unless we are sociopaths. It is the mirror neurons.... a vital part of our social life and brain development.

Also, since I have had this friction with an old friend who dont wish to be "helped" and you state; "Isnt this a waste of resources" - could you be so kind as to explain what may be the mechanisms behind this behaviour?..... Well since that is your preferred behaviour perhaps.

If you are in need of help, and it is the most LOGICAL solution ... in this case example: Person A has work for say, 10 k value, person B has work for 1 K value. Both need at least 4 k to feed the family. How solve? Logical rationale, give 3 from the 10 to the 1 and voila! Problem solved. Sure, the 10 k person would "suffer" a loss of income, but both would "eat". Or: Person B resists getting work as this would (? reduce income for the other?.... ...hurt their independence? ....make them FEEL reduced? ....make them FEEL obligated?... please insert rational reason here) and family suffers. The fact I wrote capitalized FEELs is intentional.

I have INTJ friends, but I find them much more empathic than some INTJs here at PerC, who I wonder if they sometimes ACTS the archetypical INTJ brilliant non-caring asshole or if it is true (no offense meant actually, I find it truly interesting and amusing to see what you write).

GENERALIZING to make a point: My ISTJ and ENTJ friends seem from my Fe-view very "lazy"; They dont wish to give any energy to other people (other than the chosen few). Be it shopping for a gift, giving birthday visits, caring to call or seeing someone who lies on their death bed etc, they dont do it unless they see personal gain. Whereas I see spreading "happiness" and well being as a core instrument to achieve personal happiness and value in life. (Even deducted in research, you Scientists...;-)

Another example: My son says "I dont want to go see ..XXX..., it is no fun". Whereas I can see (using my mindreading powers) that such a visit would mean extremely much to the other person (XXX). Rationally weighing it against my own and the sons EMOTIONAL resistance towards doing the visit, I would let the benefit to the other persons happiness go before my small inconvenience. Which, by the way, often turns out to be a figment of imagination as many meetings can be rewarding in many different ways. Increasing maximum good/happiness around you, is that such a curse? There are judgemental people of any type, some using Fe of course. I just dont see it as a system error the way some of you see it.

Well... thats my Fe thoughts for you. And, as stated, I would be thankful for any explanations about being reluctant to receiving Fe treatment. If you analyze it, wont you also find a lot of EMOTIONAL reasons and not logocal ones? I am curious....
 
#34 ·
@ENTPreneur
I think it is heavy generalizations, and I cant say that I relate to all that is written in this thread.
From a Te perspective this is how Fe is perceived.
No Fe user will relate to that perspective since it is so foreign.
Just as no Te user will relate to Fe users appraisal of Te.

Some here say that Fe users misinterpret stuff as personal attacks etc. This baffles me...
Oh?

I really relate to that and have experienced a lot of hurt through dabblings with ISTJs and ENTJs, some whom I find extremely self centered and egoistic (generalizing). I have had to come to realize that some people just dot have that need nor understanding. They "do not return the favor" so to speak.... And are utterly surprised and unimpressed if you try to explain.
They can't see those social constructs.
Their rejection of your good intentions either by action or word is interpreted as a personal attack by most Fe users.
However from their perspective your good intentions is considered a form of manipulation.
This is a classic unity vs separateness conflict.

I have INTJ friends, but I find them much more empathic than some INTJs here at PerC,
Most INTJ have learned to tone it down in real life to take care of their physical health and general well being. The forces that led to the inquisition is still at play in this society.

My ISTJ and ENTJ friends seem from my Fe-view very "lazy";
Sure they seem lazy since you find it so extremely easy to sync your Fe field.
While for them it is a huge project.
 
#35 ·
They can't see those social constructs.
Their rejection of your good intentions either by action or word is interpreted as a personal attack by most Fe users.
However from their perspective your good intentions is considered a form of manipulation.
This is a classic unity vs separateness conflict.
Thank you for the insights into this. I mean it. I had my theories but it is always good the hear from the source. And learn.

...could you elaborate a bit about the manipulation part? Just a bit?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#46 ·
@ENTPreneur

Your total inability to see your own rigidity amuses me, but I am not interested in a pissing contest. Nor am I interested in explaining that actually boundaries are pathological (which they are not), which is the only thing you evidently want to hear. Nor do I intend to have a discussion with someone who insults me every post. Ignorant stereotyping, ad hominems, and projections are not worth my time. So far you have proven yourself capable of nothing else; do not expect me to respond unless you buck this trend. I hope you can, but if not, there are thousands of other people you could talk to instead whom you have not insulted repeatedly. This bullshit isn't worth my time. I actually have a life. And your little claim that you "respect" me is worth nothing if you have insults and disrespect in every post. I'm not that stupid.
 
#48 ·
@ENTPreneur

Your total inability to see your own rigidity amuses me, b
Happy to be of service in SOME way then.. Ok, Ill speak to others then. G´night! (I really should work anyways... deadline in 1,5 hrs).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#49 ·
@ENTPreneur
Are P-types as "horribly effected" by Fe-users as J-types?
Not as horrible affected as the first two P-types show up on level 6.
EXFPs.
They don't like good intentions either, but don't give a damn about plans.
In essence we can say that the planning part amplifies the issue.

And still I do not see the LOGIC in this behaviour. It seems all FEELY to me...
This was never about logic. Te != Logic.
This is much more a difference in values. Fe vs Fi.
So yes feelings are involved on both sides.
A person guided by Fi doesn't believe that the feelings experienced matches anyone else's.
Nor does that person believe that the values that the person holds must be shared by anyone else.
The reasoning is you leave me alone to do my thing, I'll leave you alone to do your thing.
Unfortunately Fe's thing is meddling.

I believe that a functioning NP-type can hold more data in memory.
No...
You hold just as much information, but about different things.

It's like say you have a specialized storage space to remember all the moves in chess.
Then someone comes along and wants you to add all the tactics of poker.
It doesn't really fit in with the established structure and is discarded.
And if you really want to fit it in you have to be very creative.
Meaning investing lots of time and energy to push something into a box that doesn't fit.

I do not think that Teddy nor I or others in this thread are trying to convince anyone that they are wrong/right etc.
That maybe so, but from a Te/Fi perspective your wording is riddled with small Fe/Ti statements that from a Te/Fi perspective
would be considered a argument/challenge to her position. Just as her wording are riddled with wording that would be considered
a dismissal of your good intentions in this discussion from a Fe/Ti perspective.
Already at this level where we are as objectively as we are able to,
and only trying to discuss the underlying issues the friction arises.
Imagine then the level of miscommunication in a real conflict...

Instead, we are trying to achieve UNDERSTANDING. I believe that is what you also refer to in your last sentence, and ultimately where our goals align and we meet...
Yes that is true on one level.
But what the both of you are trying to understand,
and more importantly get out of the understanding are fundamentally different.

You seem to want to find a way to include Te/Fi user into a unity even more, with minimal friction.
She is after a way to increase the separateness.
You have conflicting agendas, even though on the surface you seem to be after the same thing.

our standpoint in the matter is hardly less judgemental, is it?
This is a classic example of a Fe/Ti statement. Although a very toned down one.
It really have to do with trying to pin value judgments onto the other persons position.

@lirulin
I find it interesting that I have never labelled you personally, your post is riddled with various judgemental labels about me as a person, and yet you still consider me the judgemental one. You would make a more interesting guinea pig if I hadn't seen it all before. Seriously, just try to let go of whatever grudge you seem to have
This is a classic example of a Te/Fi user interpreting the Fe/Ti statements in reverse of what the Fe/Ti user had intended.
This is usually where a conversation starts to spiral into a Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti battle with on end.
In this case it lead to the Fe/Ti user saying, where did that come from?
And the Te/Fi user (due to personal history) saying, here we go again...
 
#51 ·
No...
You hold just as much information, but about different things.

It's like say you have a specialized storage space to remember all the moves in chess.
Then someone comes along and wants you to add all the tactics of poker.
It doesn't really fit in with the established structure and is discarded.
And if you really want to fit it in you have to be very creative.
Meaning investing lots of time and energy to push something into a box that doesn't fit.
Yes there is definitely something to this you say...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#50 ·
Thank you for the input Hornet, you are insightful.... Although I must ALSO admit that I was tired, bored and actually did tease just enough so that Lirulin would take the bait. Childish, I know. I will try to refrain from it. I am a big tease... expert at it if I find the right subject.

Once again, thank you for your sincere input. Very valuable.

My apologies, Lirulin. Official.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#55 ·
Has anyone else noticed that this subject always derails into page upon page of argument?

And it's pretty much the same every time, and it's always in the end mostly a Fi vs Fe matter.

This is because Fi becomes enraged when Fe attempts to push it into an external value-frame. After pondering this for a while, I came to the conclusion that I sincerely think this is the responsibility of Fe users to refrain from pushing their values down everyone's throats. Now this might be my NTJ bias, but hear me out. I might actually have a point.

Fi does not externalize values. It just minds it's own business and it wants to be left alone. So the externalization of Fe-values is really the "agressor" in this case. A Fi user will be inclined to label their opinions as such - to say "I think that X is wrong." or "in my opinion, X is wrong." Or, for that sake, "For me, X feels wrong."

It does not claim that "X is wrong." like Fe does. For a Fi user, such statements are value dictatorships and to be avoided at all costs. It's offensive, degrading and has no basis in reality.

So what Fe users are doing is that they make objective statements ("X is wrong" is objective in the same sense that "The chair is red" is) about truly subjective matters of opinion that can't be "right" or "wrong". This does not just make Fi angry - it seriously flips a switch in Te too.

Te is also an external judging function, just like Fe. But for Te, the thing that is absolutely the most important thing in the entire universe is to build a great wall between "fact" and "opinion". So the formula "X is wrong because I think so" is not only a Fi-repressing opinion dictatorship. It's also a fundamental error of thinking in the eyes of Te, for from a Te perspective, opinions are completely separate from facts.

The chair is red because it can be observed to be red. But X can't be wrong, because there's no externally observable evidence of that. There's no evidence of "right" and "wrong" even existing in the first place. What's certain, though, is that I think it's wrong.

So, it's basically like this:

Fe: "It's fundamentally wrong to do X"

Fi: "That's your opinion, stop shoving it down everyone's throats"
Te: "Prove it. That's a claim about objective reality that needs to be backed by evidence"

And then the weird shit happens:

Fe: "But I only wanted everyone to get along"

Like, that's what everyone was doing until Fe came and tried to shove its subjective opinions down the throats of every living thing in the entire universe and establish a dictatorship of values under the pretense of creating "harmony". Of course, this may again be NTJ bias, but in my eyes, harmony is achieved by letting everyone mind their own business to the fullest extent possible - Not by forcing everyone into the same frame of values and opinions.

Fe does not allow that, because in the opinion of Fe, "getting along" means "belonging to the same group mentality". This invasive way of handling values and opinions is the basis of conflict, not a way to solve it.

I think that in order to use Fe in a positive way, Fe users will have to adapt their external values, so that the values they project is that everyone can have their own values, as long as it does not hurt anyone else. This would be an efficient way of using Fe to actually create harmony, because this ideal can be both preached and enforced with any degree of dictatorial measures without invading anyones personal value space.

That's a group mentality that even I as an ENTJ could agree to be part of.
 
#56 ·
Has anyone else noticed that this subject always derails into page upon page of argument?

And it's pretty much the same every time, and it's always in the end mostly a Fi vs Fe matter.

This is because Fi becomes enraged when Fe attempts to push it into an external value-frame. After pondering this for a while, I came to the conclusion that I sincerely think this is the responsibility of Fe users to refrain from pushing their values down everyone's throats. Now this might be my NTJ bias, but hear me out. I might actually have a point.

Fi does not externalize values. It just minds it's own business and it wants to be left alone. So the externalization of Fe-values is really the "agressor" in this case. A Fi user will be inclined to label their opinions as such - to say "I think that X is wrong." or "in my opinion, X is wrong." Or, for that sake, "For me, X feels wrong."

It does not claim that "X is wrong." like Fe does. For a Fi user, such statements are value dictatorships and to be avoided at all costs. It's offensive, degrading and has no basis in reality.

So what Fe users are doing is that they make objective statements ("X is wrong" is objective in the same sense that "The chair is red" is) about truly subjective matters of opinion that can't be "right" or "wrong". This does not just make Fi angry - it seriously flips a switch in Te too.

Te is also an external judging function, just like Fe. But for Te, the thing that is absolutely the most important thing in the entire universe is to build a great wall between "fact" and "opinion". So the formula "X is wrong because I think so" is not only a Fi-repressing opinion dictatorship. It's also a fundamental error of thinking in the eyes of Te, for from a Te perspective, opinions are completely separate from facts.

The chair is red because it can be observed to be red. But X can't be wrong, because there's no externally observable evidence of that. There's no evidence of "right" and "wrong" even existing in the first place. What's certain, though, is that I think it's wrong.

So, it's basically like this:

Fe: "It's fundamentally wrong to do X"

Fi: "That's your opinion, stop shoving it down everyone's throats"
Te: "Prove it. That's a claim about objective reality that needs to be backed by evidence"

And then the weird shit happens:

Fe: "But I only wanted everyone to get along"

Like, that's what everyone was doing until Fe came and tried to shove its subjective opinions down the throats of every living thing in the entire universe and establish a dictatorship of values under the pretense of creating "harmony". Of course, this may again be NTJ bias, but in my eyes, harmony is achieved by letting everyone mind their own business to the fullest extent possible - Not by forcing everyone into the same frame of values and opinions.

Fe does not allow that, because in the opinion of Fe, "getting along" means "belonging to the same group mentality". This invasive way of handling values and opinions is the basis of conflict, not a way to solve it.

I think that in order to use Fe in a positive way, Fe users will have to adapt their external values, so that the values they project is that everyone can have their own values, as long as it does not hurt anyone else. This would be an efficient way of using Fe to actually create harmony, because this ideal can be both preached and enforced with any degree of dictatorial measures without invading anyones personal value space.
For the sake of things, I just skimmed your post, but I got the message I believe. And as I and acouple more are the culprits, let me just get to the point.

I DO NOT think of it as AGGRESSORS or VICTIMS etc. Fe, externalizes: e.g. it is TAKING ACTION. Fi broods in itself, quietly.

Dont see it as aggressor vs victim. See it is an action-oriented function that seeks good (from their perspective) for all, including you.

And as Lirulin brought up the example of evangelists and slamming the door, here is my (Fe and logical) way of handling the same situation, that might explain some difference in thinking: I politely decline their efforts, but have a hard time becoming angry or annoyed at them, because it (example) stems from their (illogical) belief that they will SAVE you from burning in hell. Why be angry with them for trying to save you, even if where they come from seem stupid and they are "fooled"? Since their intent is good, then I return the kindness of sorts, albeit I firmly decline their "help". If you see the irony, it is their Fe of sorts (but more doctrine) vs my Fe (returning their kindness of intent) but declining their help (Fe).
 
#58 ·
Fi and Fe users etc. It is a two-way road.To better communication both must know where the other is coming from to not take offense. THAT, friends, is whay I am here writing Trying to give you the insights you might need. I do not clash with my less empathic brethren IRL over me impressing opinions on them. But they can make me feel sad when their lack (even lack of wishing to have) understanding of my viewpoint make them "not return favors/kindness or similar". Not that they care of course....:)

So you see, some of us do this all the time; I think it is inherent in Fe to try to understand others too. But very judging persons are of course just that, Fe or not...
 
#63 ·
What you are doing here is that you interpret their view of Fe users in general as an attack on you in particular.
From the view of Te that is absolutely meaningless, but that doesn't matter since your lens of Fe gives it meaning.
They talk about objective categories and the connections between them.
You latch on to the perceived negative or positive connotation of the category, apply it back to the group in question
and by proxy yourself making it seem to you that you are under attack.

The main thing we can take from this is that a Te based conclution will be disturbing through the lens of Fe.
Likewise a Fe based conclusion will be disturbing through the lens of Te.
There is no obvious bridge. No middle ground.
Unity and separateness doesn't mix.
 
#61 ·
@ENTPreneur
I DO NOT think of it as AGGRESSORS or VICTIMS etc. Fe, externalizes: e.g. it is TAKING ACTION. Fi broods in itself, quietly.
Rejects the role assigned.

Dont see it as aggressor vs victim. See it is an action-oriented function that seeks good (from their perspective) for all, including you.
Then tells him how he should see the world.

here is my (Fe and logical) way of handling the same situation,
Fe isn't logical. Neither is Te.
Logic is a system that needs to be learned not a cognitive function.

If you see the irony, it is their Fe of sorts (but more doctrine) vs my Fe (returning their kindness of intent) but declining their help (Fe).
Yes declining help, but returning kindness of intent is a very Fe thing.
So there is obviously a big expectation problem when Fe users expect non-Fe users to use it back.
This expectation get interpreted as aggression regardless of the intention behind it.
It leads to the Te being put at an energetic disadvantage if he doesn't just ignore the conversation, slam the door style.
It would be similar to demanding of a Fe user that he read a 50 page thesis on the subject every time he
had a conversation with a Te user in a made up society where Te users was the majority.

I hope you understand that my overt focus on you ENTPreneur,
is because this thread is about Fe and you are the only one using it here. :)
Edit:Teddy could if he wanted to, but he is very skilled at talking to NTJs.
 
#65 ·
@teddy564339
I really agree with the whole survival of society vs the individual.
Fe users put society first in all instances.
However most situations are not life or death situations as they was in the past.
Today we have large automated systems to make sure society survives.
I believe that Fe is a very tribal way of approaching a problem.
A "We need unity or the tribe will not survive!" reasoning.
The intention is positive and can be usefully applied in many situations to great benefit.
However it is just as often applied to situations where it at best creates a Win-Lose scenario.
Often a Lose-Lose scenario
 
  • Like
Reactions: lirulin
#296 ·
I really agree with the whole survival of society vs the individual.
Fe users put society first in all instances.
However most situations are not life or death situations as they was in the past.
Today we have large automated systems to make sure society survives.
I believe that Fe is a very tribal way of approaching a problem.
A "We need unity or the tribe will not survive!" reasoning.
The intention is positive and can be usefully applied in many situations to great benefit.
However it is just as often applied to situations where it at best creates a Win-Lose scenario.
Often a Lose-Lose scenario
I think that the Te view of things is limited, just as the Fe is. Lirulin said that there wasn't a bridge between Te-Fe. This isn't true. Really, both of these functions are just different ways of looking at the same object. It's like looking at a asymmetrical mountain. The individual on the north side has a completely different viewpoint of the object on the south. They may see completely different details according to the side, but both views are also accurate according to the side. Thus, in order to have a completely accurate understanding of the object, it's essential that a person on one side consult with one on the other, to see things from the other perspective. It will take great effort and will to go to the other side, but it's necessary to achieve the complete understanding.

So it goes with the F/T dichotomy, and even the E/I dichotomy. There are certain situations that call for Te, and Te-users are indispensable in handling those situations. They are necessary. Then there are certain circumstances that require Fe, and Fe-users have gifts that allow them to effectively handle them. We need to respect that both functions, and their users, have value to society in their own fields, and that they both are needed.

The issue here is that some users are giving the impression that Fe is not needed anymore:
I believe that Fe is a very tribal way of approaching a problem.
A 'We need unity or the tribe will not survive!' reasoning.
The intention is positive and can be usefully applied in many situations to great benefit.
However it is just as often applied to situations where it at best creates a Win-Lose scenario.
Often a Lose-Lose scenario
This is faulty reasoning. "No man is an island entire of itself." It is a psychological fact that we need each other. The fact that psychological type exists suggests such a thing in and of itself! And not just to "survive" in the literal since of the word, but in order to maintain mental and emotional health. Fe is a function that effectively serves as a harmonizer. Bringing people together and attuning to and serving other people's practical and emotional needs. Not to mention that it serves differently depending on how its situated with other functions. Technology will never be able to care for people the way another person can. And the actions of Fe are a Lose-lose situation only as often as the actions of Te are.

In conclusion, Te is not superior to Fe. Any overtly negative view of Fe, as lirulin admitted to having, is an incomplete, self-centered one. The Taiji symbol of the yin-yang best describes the relationship between thinking and feeling, and really any of the other trait dichotomies.
 
#66 ·
@lirulin
It is very much an individual perception and I understand it as such.
However Fe reasoning goes like this.
You have bad emotion! = I have bad emotion!
Conclusion:
Bad emotion is your fault! XD
 
#72 ·
@lirulin

However Fe reasoning goes like this.
You have bad emotion! = I have bad emotion!
Conclusion:
Bad emotion is your fault! XD
...And actually, that is EXACTLY what happens too IRL!!! According to the research in many social layers too... Did I mention mirror neurons?
 
#68 ·
@teddy564339
The first line I think is right, the second one though I don't think is right from the Fe perspective. I may be wrong, but I think that might be the Fi perspective of what the Fe thought is.
Interesting!
The you're guilty part may be inferred from some aspect of the Fe communication.
A sort of mind reading by Fi.
I often get the feeling of, you are guilty and should repent, when dealing with EXFJs.

However, because the Fi person may not want any help or may not want to fix the bad emotion
Exactly! emotions and values are personal matters that are not open to second guessing by others. At least from a Fi perspective.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lirulin
#69 ·
@teddy564339

Interesting!
The you're guilty part may be inferred from some aspect of the Fe communication.
A sort of mind reading by Fi.
I often get the feeling of, you are guilty and should repent, when dealing with EXFJs.
Well, it definitely depends on the person. However, it also depends on what's actually happening too.

There's a difference between what an Fe user interprets as a "bad emotion" as opposed to a "bad action". Like NiDBiLD said, the idea of "harming others", or in the Fe user's mind, harming the group.

If an Fe user believes someone is doing something to harm the group, they're probably more likely to want to make the person change their ways so the group won't continue to be hurt. Judgment may or may not be present, but the purpose would probably be trying to prevent the action from occurring again.

However, I when you said "bad emotion" I interpret that as completely different. I interpret that as sadness, or frustration, or irritation.
 
#73 ·
And all of you... Know this. I am writing all of this with a smirk on my lips. I do not feel offended at all. Not even surprised... Well, a little perhaps, since it really seems so hard for all here to see the differing POVs. I honestly think I can see your POV, but I CANNOT relate to it emotionally, nor accept it as the right way, due to many things, some being my functions, some being a life long value system or "meaning of life" or "what is important (to me/all)".

I am not feeling attacked. To be honest, blunt and narrow minded (yes I am a bit sometimes if I let myself simplify things), I feel slightly amused by - from my POV - limitations of your thinking, here merely meaning seeing alien POVs. If you do see them then I believe you try to enforce your POV over them? Or If I have misinterpreted I beg your pardon.

I do not ask you to agree with me, the POV or anything. But I would expect that more information could make a difference in your Judgement.

I simply do not agree with your POVs. As long as it is a minority who have your views society will work just fine. That is why it is so good to have a mix of personalities; I would bet that you would be equally frustrated and annoyed about things (albeit other things) if you were forced to hang around your own brethren only all the time too. But I accept your POVs as simply other POVs that one can have. Truth is relative to me, coming from a value system of reference.

I like to debate, and to help people gain insights. As well as gaining them myself. I am a curious bastard.
 
#74 ·
Fe and the INTJs

This has been one of the best descriptions of Fe I've seen in a while, thank you OP for the objective and unbiased attempt to describe this function.

However, there is something I would like to point out in regards to the types who do not use dominantly this function.

To me, Fe is a psychologically-attaching function that scans the environment(using their perceiving functions, either Ni or Si) and adapts one's self to that environment with the hopes of maintaining group unity or cohesion. When this happens, every value and norm within that group becomes part of that individual's identity. Unless Ti isn't fully developed, these types of people will be swayed too easily by the wants and needs of that group without taking into consideration the individual's own needs. Using Ti will allow the individual to detach themselves from the natural impulse of trying to fit other's ideas and values into one's own identity.

The INTJs that I've come across are averse to Fe because it goes against their natural function reasoning(namely Te/Fi). They're trying to understand Fe using their Te, which to them would not make any sense, and even more so, it may seem absurd and illogical. Even trying to understand Fe using your Fi isn't going to work, because Fi demands value judgments to come from the individual themselves rather than the group, therefore making it the antithesis of Fe itself.

In my opinion, the only way of understanding Fe is through direct experience of Fe. Trying to understand it in another way invites confusion and inevitably ends up in dismissing Fe entirely as a way of making decisions.

The only problem I see of directly understanding Fe is that it may be too exhausting for non-Fe users to attempt using it. For INTJs for example, this means stop thinking with Te, and allowing making decisions with the overall group in mind.

Speaking as an INFJ who has directly used Te has been a great experience. For one, the moment that one integrates Te into the conscious psyche, Fe-Ti become completely suppressed, and odd cognitive behaviors begin to appear. Now, this may still be Te INFJ'ed, and it may not be the real Te that natural TJ's have, but it does allow to speculate the thinking processes that this types go through, and a wider gap of understanding between others emerge.
 
#77 ·
In my opinion, the only way of understanding Fe is through direct experience of Fe. Trying to understand it in another way invites confusion and inevitably ends up in dismissing Fe entirely as a way of making decisions.

The only problem I see of directly understanding Fe is that it may be too exhausting for non-Fe users to attempt using it. For INTJs for example, this means stop thinking with Te, and allowing making decisions with the overall group in mind.
As I understand it, this is the way Fe works - through blending with, taking on, empathising, connecting with something to understand. So it seems a little like a catch-22 - to understand how Fe works, you have to already have it - yet you don't seem to see it that way for Te. It almost boils down to the implication that Fe is just inherantly better for understanding - which it is, I agree, for Fe-users, but not for Fi-Tes.

Fwiw, as I see it, Te using its outside perspective is potentially capable of building models of other functions that will integrate far more easily with the way Te-users think as opposed to taking on a Fe-skin the way Fe-users do it. Just as taking on the Te-skin integrates more easily with your way of thinking than learning Te impersonally, the way Te really is, would do. And as dealing with Fe, as a Fe-user, will always be from the outside, I don't for myself find taking on the inside perspective so important as hearing it from those able to have a civil conversation about it. And there are ways, with Te, of thinking about the group perspective. Just as you use the Fe way of taking on a Te-skin and relating personally to it, to get an idea about Te, Te-users are going to be most comfortable, usually, taking the Te way of impersonal analysis, to see how Fe works.

Again with Fe - I may dismiss it entirely as a way for me to make decision, as it suits neither my goals nor temperament, but that doesn't equate to dismissing it wholesale. But no, the dismissal is not inevitable - I have witnessed alternatives. For myself, trying to learn about Fe the Fe way would make me, probably, more likely to dismiss it as tiring, pressuring, unnatural, icky, and freaky etc. etc. It is the objective appraisal of its motives and structure that would, for the way I think, earn it a greater sense of validity and respect.
 
#75 ·
Some extroverts just like people. To try to make them feel good, help them, bounce ideas at them, talk a lot, ask questions etc. That energizes them, but annoys the crap out of introverts, draining them.

These over-friendly people do not wish you ANY harm whatsoever, and cannot even imagine that anyone could believe that (or be damaged in any way) for a second.

If you would calmly, but friendly (try it, it will not hurt) tell them that it is draining to you , even mentioning MBTI and energy, then I bet they would be a bit shaken but would comply. AND they would try to help you in THAT WAY too (giving you space etc.), in situations that follow.

So, friends, we can benefit personally too from reaching out a hand to others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#78 ·
Mirror neurons are one of the "latest" discoveries in brain physiology and psychology. They are the "mimic" function, the physical embodiment of Fe (simplified). When you see someone sad, your mirror neurons identify it as sad and make you "feel" sad, thus giving birth to empathy. They are also vital for developing infants who learn stuff (faces, movements, words etc).

I would guess that there is a correlation to Fe and the activity/sensitivity of mirror neurons somewhere.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Inveniet
#79 ·
@lirulin

Why do you want to understand Fe if you don't see the utility in using it? Is it merely for understanding others, or for something else?

I began learning Te because I actually saw the usefulness of it in some areas of my life. Of course, like I stated previously, it may very well still be Fe-Ti in the disguise of Te. But I think I have a better grasp of it than when I initially began studying JCF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lirulin
#81 ·
Mainly for understanding others. And, potentially, for not hurting them (like my INFJ bf, who after some nasty life experiences, can be really sensitive sometimes. Often). Or for not being hurt by it. For myself, I think Ni-Fi is an easier way for me to relate to others - I create individualised profiles of people's needs and perspectives rather than developing a more general model of social expectations. The closest to a general model I get is mbti - which has tons of divisions of difference in it that make it more workable for me. And as much as I want people I care about to not constantly feel rejected for no reason I can see, for my own peace of mind, there is only so much unity, validation, and social cohesiveness I can take. Too much Fe in the environment and it's like 'don't think of a white elephant' - every perverse thing I could stay starts hammering at my brain and/or I want to scream. It's not comfortable for me - I need to step outside and breathe every once in a while. Or, well, often.

Also, from my perspective alone I see mainly, though not only, the damage it can cause to others. That is an incomplete, albeit valid perspective - if I don't get a clear perspective on what it wants to do and why (even if I do not share the goals) then I risk having limited (though not necessarily false) understanding. Also, it makes me more likely to be hurt by it if I don't know about the good intentions, and the reasons these intentions that I consider intrusive are considered good. I will not necessarily consider it any less intrusive, but I will understand why others don't find it so. I want to know the 'good' side (even if I still disagree with the valuing) - but it could easily be that, for the goals that are a part of Fe that I might share, or for the tasks it is adapted to, there exist other adaptations more in line with how I think, with my functions, and that the latter adaptations would be the best - for me - way of dealing. And for some goals I just won't share the need/desire and may even lose out by it being filled. I am quite interested in learning about other perspectives - adopting them isn't so much a need in itself, there has to be another reason that makes it the best perspective to adopt. INTJs don't tend to be as chameleon-like as some other types. Certainly I have a much better idea now of the structure of Fe now, which helps.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top