Si (Te, Fe) vs Ni (Te, Fe) : WickedQueen's MBTI Theory

As an attempt to understand the collaboration of functions, I've read several theories and made up my own theories to distinguish the difference between S and N functions. I'm gonna start with analyzing Si (Te, Fe) vs Ni (Te, Fe) functions.

We all know that in MBTI, Si dom users divided into two types, ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) and ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne).
While Ni dom users divided into two types, INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) and INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se).

I personally don't believe the theories that said Si recollected past memories and live based on their memories of the past. I think both Si and Ni works like an instinc. But since Sensory functions (Si and Se) prefer concrete ideas, they will rely more on realistic situations. This is of course different with iNtuitive functions who prefers abstract ideas and are more flexible.

Example:
Let say that there are four kindergarten students. They are ISTJ, ISFJ, INTJ, and INFJ.

One day, their teacher teach them how to coloring a gold fish picture. She show them boxes of crayons. Each box contain crayons with the same color. "Use the yellow crayon, children," said her.

The four students do what she said. They each take a yellow crayon from the crayon box and use it to coloring the gold fish.

Three months later, the teacher ask them to do the same thing. She give them a coloring paper with a gold fish picture. "Color your gold fish with the same color like you did three months ago."

Let say that the four of them already forgotten what color they use three months ago.

The ISTJ and ISFJ will use their Si in the same way. They look at the crayon box.

Let say the ISTJ take the red crayon and examine it. But then his Si, works like an instinct, suddenly say: "No. That's not the right color."

The ISTJ put the red crayon back. He then take the yellow crayon and examine it. And his instinct say: "Yes. This is it." So he keep the crayon and use it to color the gold fish.

Even though he didn't remember what color exactly was the crayon which he used three months ago, his Si made his subconscious mind to copy, whether it's the feeling, or the aura, or the sense that he got when he was using the yellow crayon to coloring the gold fish.

In the present, when he's choosing the right crayon, his Si bring back the sense and convert it into some kind of instinctual form. If the teacher ask him, does he remember the color of the crayon, the ISTJ will answer: "No, I forgot."

Teacher : "So how did you know that it's yellow?"
ISTJ : "I just knew."

How about the INTJ and INFJ? Since Ni doesn't work like Si, the Ni will rely more to the second function to memorize the crayon's color. To INTJ, this means he will use his Te. To INFJ, this means he will use his Fe.

The INTJ, using his factual Te, remember that the crayon's box was the third one from the left.

While the INFJ, using his impressionist Fe, remember the impression he got when he saw the color. He remember that the color made him felt cheerful and warm. As the result, the INFJ will probably take the crayon with the same impression. It is also possible that he will take an orange or red crayon, because to him, both colors have the same impression.

So when choosing the right color, the INTJ will be more precise than the INFJ. While the INFJ will be more creative than the INTJ.

A week later, the teacher ask them to draw a futuristic modern city. This is new for the students, as the teacher haven't teach them about it yet. The teacher expect them to use their imagination.

As Ni users, the INTJ and INFJ will draw a city with some things that they have not seen before. Like the flying trees, pink fishes riding a car, or futuristic buildings, etc. Their Ni works like an instinct that can predict things outside the realistic ideas.

What about the Si users?
Lack of abstrack ideas, they will use their Si to develop the future based on reality. They will draw the incredible highway, based from the real highway they have seen IRL. The concept of the city itself will looks similar with the real city they currently live in or the city they've seen before.

The ISTJ will rely on his factual Te to make sure that the street, the buildings, and the people will have the proportional and realistic size/composition. While the ISFJ will rely on his impressionist Fe to make sure that every things have the realistic colors, or make sure that the people were doing the realistic activities (shopping, working, eating, etc).

So basically, I believe that both Si and Ni works like an internal instinct. Their priority is to trust these instinct, whether or not the outside world agree with them. This internal instinct is balanced by the extroverted second function, whether it's Te or Fe, so the Si/Ni user will be able to consider inputs or stimulations from the outside world to strengthening their instinctual power.

Any thoughts?

pretty good, personally im more like an INXJ in this case, i work off logic, i would look at the goldfish and the crayon box and use the most logical choice (the fact that its called a goldfish souuld help)

i agree with the second part too, but once again it will be done to proportion, Ni is intuition, it will be abstract but will still be in a realm that is believable, also what if the sensory dominant users have never seen a city, say they were country livers?

Wicked Queen, did you see the thread about Si here? I like your coining of the term "sense aura." In the situation you describe, I would first try to reason which color makes sense, maybe choose orange instead of yellow, then get mad when the teacher says it's wrong, lol. Then say I mature a little more; I'm in first grade now and have come to understand that the objective was to follow directions and remember which crayon to use. In this case I will look to the Si "sense aura" for information.

It is curious that you attribute emotional responses to color to the Fe function. I am skeptical that the INFJ would use their feeling function to choose the right color because I think Fe is concerned with people and ethics, not things. I think INFJ would ponder on color and goldfish, then make a choice via Ti-based reason.

Originally Posted by Vaan

also what if the sensory dominant users have never seen a city, say they were country livers?

They'd probably make drawings based on descriptions they've heard of cities, probably something really country-like, but more crowded and organized?

A year or so ago, my class did an experiment. It was Christmas season and we were all supposed to come up with 10 ideas for Christmas gifts. Most of those I'd type as sensors came up with obvious things, like pens and miniature Christmas trees. I, and the iNtuitives, came up with crazy stuff like a flying robot pigeon that would send Christmas letters and edible poinsettias. What happened afterwards was rather interesting: the NJs ruled out the wildest ideas and stuck to more easy-to-implement ones (Ni-Se?), while the NPs stuck with the crazy ones.

Thoughts?

And one last thing: I never, never, never liked drawing. So maybe I'd have just put down the crayons and gone do something else.

Cool idea, the WickedQueen's Si(Te, Fe) vs. Ni(Te, Fe) Theory...My Dad and Mom are ISTJ and ISFJ respectively. Whenever they lose something they mentally retrace the memory of their physical actions. I would probably do the same thing as the INTJ, though, and use logic.

How do you think other types like ESTJ would react?

Originally Posted by Vaan

i agree with the second part too, but once again it will be done to proportion, Ni is intuition, it will be abstract but will still be in a realm that is believable,

Actually, I'm heavily disagree that the term "iNtuition" in MBTI literally means intuition, just like I disagree that the term "Thinker" literally means logic and "Feeler" means emotion.

And yes, being an iNtuitor does not mean that the person will always think in abstract train of thought, because they have Sensory function as their third/fourth function. So the Se will balance the Ni, and the Si will balance the Ne. Together, Si-Ne and Se-Ni work as Perception, to take information from outside and inside.

Originally Posted by simulatedworld

Jung observed two types of general cognition: Perception (taking in information) and Judgment (making decisions/evaluating it.)

He said that there are two styles of Perception: Sensing (which deals with immediate, concrete, tangible sensory impressions) and iNtuition (which deals with abstract patterns and relationships between things or ideas, and other non-tangible information.)

There are also two styles of Judgment: Thinking (which deals with impersonal logic and structure) and Feeling (which deals with personal/interpersonal ethics and morality.)

Furthermore, each of these four processes can be directed inwardly (introverted), which means it's conceptualized subjectively in terms of the self, or externally (extroverted), which means it's conceptualized objectively in terms of not-self.

Originally Posted by Nitou

Wicked Queen, did you see the thread about Si here? I like your coining of the term "sense aura." In the situation you describe, I would first try to reason which color makes sense, maybe choose orange instead of yellow, then get mad when the teacher says it's wrong, lol. Then say I mature a little more; I'm in first grade now and have come to understand that the objective was to follow directions and remember which crayon to use. In this case I will look to the Si "sense aura" for information.

I haven't read that thread before, so thank you for giving me the link.

Since I'm not very good in English (it's not my mother tongue and I don't use it IRL), I apologize if my wording isn't precise enough. :P

I think what I mean of "sense aura" is more like... sensation or gut instinct? I think Si work like a copy machine. It imprinting the sensation from the first experience, and use the sensation as the blueprint, and keep it in the data reminder.

When someone lie to me on the phone or on the internet, I have this "sensation", or common people will call it my gut instinct, that tell me that the person is lying. I think that's when I use my Si.

Originally Posted by Vaan

personally im more like an INXJ in this case, i work off logic, i would look at the goldfish and the crayon box and use the most logical choice (the fact that its called a goldfish souuld help)

Originally Posted by Nitou

It is curious that you attribute emotional responses to color to the Fe function. I am skeptical that the INFJ would use their feeling function to choose the right color because I think Fe is concerned with people and ethics, not things. I think INFJ would ponder on color and goldfish, then make a choice via Ti-based reason.

Originally Posted by Adriel

I would probably do the same thing as the INTJ, though, and use logic.

Thank you for the inputs. Yeah I'm aware of that too. I think I was trying to separate the use of Te and Fe as the second function, but I wasn't quite sure how the Fe work as the second function to support Ni, especially when it comes to remembering the crayon's color. LOL.

Any suggestion?

Originally Posted by Vaan

also what if the sensory dominant users have never seen a city, say they were country livers?

Like Amon91 said, They'd probably make drawings based on descriptions they've heard or seen on TV, of cities or country-like, but more crowded and organized.

Originally Posted by amon91

A year or so ago, my class did an experiment. It was Christmas season and we were all supposed to come up with 10 ideas for Christmas gifts. Most of those I'd type as sensors came up with obvious things, like pens and miniature Christmas trees. I, and the iNtuitives, came up with crazy stuff like a flying robot pigeon that would send Christmas letters and edible poinsettias. What happened afterwards was rather interesting: the NJs ruled out the wildest ideas and stuck to more easy-to-implement ones (Ni-Se?), while the NPs stuck with the crazy ones.

Thoughts?

What will happen if those ideas should be executed?

Originally Posted by Adriel

Cool idea, the WickedQueen's Si (Te, Fe) vs. Ni (Te, Fe) Theory...My Dad and Mom are ISTJ and ISFJ respectively. Whenever they lose something they mentally retrace the memory of their physical actions.

Yeah, Si users are good in retracing memories because they have huge capability to recognize different sensations, even the seemingly unnoticeable ones. That's their biggest strength.

Originally Posted by Adriel

How do you think other types like ESTJ would react?

I think I would also use my Si in both scenarios.

Originally Posted by WickedQueen

Thank you for the inputs. Yeah I'm aware of that too. I think I was trying to separate the use of Te and Fe as the second function, but I wasn't quite sure how the Fe work as the second function to support Ni, especially when it comes to remembering the crayon's color. LOL.

Maybe something like this:

Ni: Hmm... The teacher asked me to choose a crayon. Why? What does it matter which I choose? Maybe it doesn't matter. But if it doesn't matter, then I can take this opportunity to choose whichever crayon I like.

Fe: However, if I choose the right crayon, the teacher might like me more.

Ti: I don't remember what color I used last time. I'll have to use whatever information I have got on hand. The assignment tells me a yellow-ish color would make do.

Ni: That's so obvious though.

Ti: Obvious because it makes sense.

Fe: I need to come up with a decision right about now.

Ni: I choose orange. It has the characteristics of both goldfish and carrot. Maybe that will prove beneficial further on.

Awesome. Thank you! :)

*take notes*

i wonder what the implications of these functions would be like in a much more complex issue, perhaps one from later in life after one has finished education and has refined their functions more

Originally Posted by Wicked Queen

I haven't read that thread before, so thank you for giving me the link.

Since I'm not very good in English (it's not my mother tongue and I don't use it IRL), I apologize if my wording isn't precise enough. :P

I think what I mean of "sense aura" is more like... sensation or gut instinct? I think Si work like a copy machine. It imprinting the sensation from the first experience, and use the sensation as the blueprint, and keep it in the data reminder.

When someone lie to me on the phone or on the internet, I have this "sensation", or common people will call it my gut instinct, that tell me that the person is lying. I think that's when I use my Si.

Your English is good. The little imperfections in your writing register in my mind as a slight accent and I think it's kind of charming. I think your choice of terms in "sense aura" is appropriate and descriptive.

aura: a distinctive but intangible quality surrounding a person or thing

I began to understand it as I was typing my mother, whom I believe to be ESTJ with strong Ne. She is a master horticulturalist; her work is both mental and physical. I realized that Si must be a mind-body phenomenon, and good use of Ne makes it more effective because you're open to incorporating new information.

Thank you for the inputs. Yeah I'm aware of that too. I think I was trying to separate the use of Te and Fe as the second function, but I wasn't quite sure how the Fe work as the second function to support Ni, especially when it comes to remembering the crayon's color. LOL.

Any suggestion?

I believe your example with the yellow crayon predicts or illustrates that Si types have an advantage performing this kind of task. This example is simple, but make the task more complex and we N types might have a bit of difficulty. We just want to do it our own way. Ti-Ne says "why should it be yellow, grrr"; Te-Ni doesn't like coloring and walks away; Ni-Fe says "orange=goldfish and carrot." No wonder you SJ's are always tormenting us! Hehe. Ni-Te, anyone? I wonder how SP's would handle it?