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The Freudian Theory of Enneagram

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This is a discussion on The Freudian Theory of Enneagram within the Articles forums, part of the Announcements category; Originally Posted by timeless Id Aggression 3-7-8: - More often impulsive. - Based on desire and want. - Often inconsiderate ...

  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by timeless View Post

    Id Aggression 3-7-8:
    - More often impulsive.
    - Based on desire and want.
    - Often inconsiderate of others.
    - Involves more direct confrontation.
    - Seeks gratification for the sake of gratification.
    - Usually very direct in their aggression. More likely to be "active-aggressive."

    Superego Aggression 1-2-6:
    - More often calculated.
    - Based on what's right and wrong.
    - The aggression is often rationalized.
    - Often considerate of others to some degree.
    - Involves both direct and indirect confrontation. Can be "active-aggressive" or "passive-aggressive."
    How could someone not be a mix between these two? Isn't everyone aimed at being a mix of them? What happens when a person succeeds in self-improvement?
    timeless thanked this post.

  2. #12

    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    How could someone not be a mix between these two?
    Someone can be a mix of the two. However, if they're an id type as their core, they're more likely to draw from the first list than from the second. So many factors go into human behavior that things like this can't be pinned down with any kind of precision: but it shows how aggression is influenced by the various types.

    It can be especially mixed if someone has both id and superego types in their tritype: for example, 3-1 or 7-1 or something like that. In this case, that list would help determine which type is more dominant than the other.

    It's kind of like MBTI in that regard: just because someone is an introvert, it doesn't mean they can't act in an extroverted way. That's not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across - personality is a multi-part system and different elements can express themselves in different ways, but there is something dominant.

  3. #13

    A lot to absorb, but great information. Thank you.

    I would like to say however, I have always mistyped myself for obvious reasons, as E5. This article reminds me of some easily mistyped matters in E5 & E9:

    Type 5s withdraw to protect themselves from the demands of people, and from the chaos in the external world; Type 9s withdraw from conflict to protect their own sense of inner peace.

    They also disintegrate to thinking center types (5<7) and (9<6), where E5s are rendered helpless by analysis-paralysis, and E9s simply check out or shut down:
    Don't over-think things. Type 5 is probably the most likely type to over-analyze and end up never taking action. This can lead to feelings of helplessness. As a 5, you'll have a tendency to pull away from your emotions. Don't let this alienate you from yourself.In tough situations, don't let the stress paralyze you.

    Because Type 9s are constantly mediating their id, superego and the outside world, they may succumb to simply "shutting down" when it gets too hard.
    Don't withdraw like that; power through it.
    However unlike the E5, E9 is the center of the instinctive triad. Therefore similar to E6 (the center of the thinking triad) and E3 (the center of the feeling triad), E9 struggles to trust their instincts, which may result in them doing nothing when times get hard and E6s actually becoming paralyzed by vacillating from thinking too much. I could be completely wrong in my assessment.

    On the other hand they both integrate to aggressive types (5>8) and (9>3):

    Type 8s like to make a big impact in the world through their actions; Type 3 can set their feelings aside to aggressively pursue their goals.

    Timeless, can you give your point of view, aside from the mistype definitions?
    Last edited by Functianalyst; 03-08-2011 at 10:46 AM.
    timeless, alionsroar and VinnyCrow thanked this post.

  4. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by timeless View Post
    I respect Riso but I think he's completely wrong about this. From the definition of "id" from the Encyclopedia Brittanica: the id "contains the psychic content related to the primitive instincts of the body, notably sex and aggression, as well as all psychic material that is inherited and present at birth." It would make no sense to say that the id is withdrawn when it's the heart of the primitive aggression instinct. The id is unrealistic and wouldn't see any sense in withdrawing (unless it's withdrawing from pain.) The ego, on the other hand, is rational and can appreciate the benefit of withdrawing from conflict.
    It seems to me that aggressive instincts don't simply mean to act in an aggressive manner but may also include that one withdraws such as in fight or flight.
    timeless thanked this post.

  5. #15

    Quote Originally Posted by Functianalyst View Post
    Timeless, can you give your point of view, aside from the mistype definitions?
    I think that's about right. I didn't cover E6 stress paralysis but that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by screamofconscious View Post
    It seems to me that aggressive instincts don't simply mean to act in an aggressive manner but may also include that one withdraws such as in fight or flight.
    It could be, but in a Freudian context, fight or flight is definitely an ego defense mechanism. "The ego is used for survival, because it activates the fight or flight response." This is a pretty established part of Freudian theory so I don't know why Riso would ascribe it to the id. The id is very, very basic: it doesn't even have a sense of time. It only knows what it wants and what it doesn't want, so it doesn't have the cognitive attributes to appreciate when a situation is "too much." (Kind of reminds me of how 8s overdo things.)
    Functianalyst, Sina and Quang thanked this post.

  6. #16

    I appreciate your application of Freud's Theory. It makes a lot more sense than the attempt by Riso/Hudson in Personality Types. That book was written a long time ago and Riso/Hudson are always evolving.

    If you have attended Riso/Hudson's "Psychic Structures" training you will see your interpretation elucidated further. According to my notes from the training presented by Russ Hudson the following is clear:

    All types have an id, ego and superego although:

    8, 3, 7 personality is more identified with the impulses of the id, hence their behavior.
    1, 2, 6 self image is clearly more identified with the superego, hence their behavior.
    9, 4, 5 identify with the middle part of the psyche which is torn between two seemingly opposing forces, hence their behavior.
    timeless, Naturalist, jack208 and 1 others thanked this post.

  7. #17

    Huh. That's one hell of a coincidence.
    Surreal Snake and timeless thanked this post.

  8. #18

    Those are not my notes from the training verbatim. Russ illustrates the structure of the psyche using a diagram for each type. Anyone who has attended "Psychic Structures" would surely have to agree that it supports the idea presented by timeless (and vice verse).

    After all, it was Freud who first came up with a visual illustration of the psychic structure using his famous diagram of an iceberg. And Russ Hudson's training happens to be called Psychic Structures and he uses abstract diagrams to illustrate these structures visually in a similar way. It's no coincidence.
    timeless and VinnyCrow thanked this post.

  9. #19

    My understanding of Freudian theory is elementary at best and my memory failed me. Personality Types does indeed match the correlations that timeless has made in his article.

    Riso also asserts in the book that many Enneagram theorists have had a very difficult time correlating Freudian theory with the E. You did this all on your own, timeless?
    Surreal Snake, timeless and VinnyCrow thanked this post.

  10. #20

    Quote Originally Posted by screamofconscious View Post
    My understanding of Freudian theory is elementary at best and my memory failed me. Personality Types does indeed match the correlations that timeless has made in his article.
    I should read that book at some point. The fact that it covers this material makes it sound pretty good to me. :p

    Riso also asserts in the book that many Enneagram theorists have had a very difficult time correlating Freudian theory with the E. You did this all on your own, timeless?
    Hmm, I didn't find it particularly hard. I came up with all this on my own, although I sometimes referenced Wikipedia or the Enneagram Institute for the basic fears and desires of each type.


     
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