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Introverted Feeling as Described by Lenore Thomson

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#1 ·
What does Lenore mean when she says "Introverted Feeling"?
(Often abbreviated "Fi")​

Quasi-defining statements
p. 41: "When we use Feeling in an Introverted way, it operates as a kind of inner flame--a sense of personal values that may be difficult to explain or express directly but whose character informs our choices and inclinations."
p. 366: "Introverted Feeling ... encourages a personal relationship to an evolving pattern, a will to gauge the situation by an experiential ideal. For example, if we use Introverted Feeling to make a good spaghetti sauce, we won't follow recipes or measure ingredients. We'll sample the sauce as we're making it, gauging its taste, smell, and texture by their ideal outcome and adjusting for circumstantial variables so the emerging pattern stays on track."
p. 367: "To invoke Introverted Feeling, we have to know the difference between a good outcome and a bad one--know with our senses, in our bones [on the basis of living, breathing, first-hand experience]."
p. 370: "Introverted Feeling relies on the inward, right-brain criteria of experience and empathy to mark off decisions that go beyond our roles in society to affect us as human beings. Law and custom, after all, are the lowest common denominator of a defined community. We associate character and humane behavior with the moral imperatives shaped by inner values."
p. 371: "An inner point of reference, one trained by personal experience. [Bypassing matters of social standing] to focus on the quintessentially human."

Proposed definition #1
Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude that everything that is manifest (apparent, observable, described) is the expression of a soul or life force, in terms of which everything ultimately makes sense. Everything that happens is the result of a soul expressing its unique nature.

From this attitude, each living thing is completely unique, and has unique needs. Every living thing needs to express itself and grow in its unique way. None of this can be put into categories or measurements, at least not without blotting out that utter uniqueness of each living thing. Because we are all living things, even though each of us is unique we can still connect to the life force as it exists in others. From an Fi standpoint, the way to respond to things is in a way that is faithful to that underlying life force.

Proposed definition #2
Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude of judging things good or bad based on how they harmonize or clash with a living being's inner essence. That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul. It is known by attending to one's own emotions in response to things. What you like is good--for you, not necessarily good for others. What you don't like is bad--for you, not necessarily bad for others. Anything outside your own soul is irrelevant to evaluating anything or choosing your course in life.

As a language of Ego Orientation
As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed. ISFPs typically seek out a space in which they can be completely and spontaneously themselves, following their artistic impulses without regard to social expectation or definition of any sort. Some do their best to live life as a soap opera: creating and living out intense drama wherever they go. INFPs typically seek to understand the world in terms of drama, emotion, and people seeking their own unique callings (perhaps Garrison Keillor is a good example of that). Some, like John Gray, attempt to help others understand each other through empathy with each other's differences, and thereby find peace and synergy.

Developed Fi naturally leads people to favor mercy or forgiveness for people who have done heinous acts--anything from theft to murder to genocide--acts that, under the ordinary laws that make a society manageable (see Extraverted Thinking), would usually merit their imprisonment or execution. From a developed Fi perspective, the criminal is still a living soul, still unique and precious despite whatever he may have done. If we walked in his moccasins for a while, maybe we could see it his way. Without condoning his crimes, maybe we could see how we ourselves could have done the same things under similar circumstances. This use of empathy as one's ultimate anchor of orientation leads to a resolute non-judgementalness. First empathize--find something in your own heart that lets you see how someone could feel and act the way he did--and then you will probably find that you no longer feel hatred or a desire for retribution.

As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.

As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

Perhaps the most typical manifestation of tertiary and inferior Fi is an attitude of psychologizing other people: a sort of pseudo-empathy in which one explains other people's behavior in terms of pitiful needs and psychological flaws that anyone would be ashamed to have. "Notice the defensiveness. He clings desperately to his ideas. Such weakness." (Nearly all psychological theories offer plenty of ammo for psychologizing, including Lenore Thomson's ideas.) Where developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way, tertiary and inferior Fi typically lead you to find something in your own soul that you despise, in terms of which you can "explain" them and justify putting them down.
Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Fi in ETJs, secondary-style Fi in IFPs, and so on--even inferior-style Fi in IFPs.

Introverted feeling is judgement with an emotional slant that causes the individual to view the object on a Subjective level. It is primarily a silent inaccessible function that is difficult to conceptualize. Therefore, unlike its extraverted counterpart, Extraverted Feeling, it is entirely individualistic, with a leaning toward the mystical. Introverted feeling is generally disconnected with typical external stimuli. Introverted feeling is only concerned with the external to the extent that the object has some relevance to a deep, internal value. Its primary objective is to harmonize ideologies, concepts, relationships etc. with the internal guiding force.

Whatever the individual values the most will dominate the motivations, goals and chief objectives of the individual. For example, if the primary value is God, then all other values will find themselves inexorably subjugated to this primary one. Often, unbalanced introverted feeling will create in the individual dramatic mood swings and decisions based on illogical rationales. However, at its best, introverted feeling provides a navigational quality that creates in the personality tenacity, idealism, honor, relationship wisdom and a unfaltering value system that is seldom compromised.
ROBERT BROOKS,INFP

Introverted feeling is a counterpart to Extroverted thinking, as are all inferior elements to the dominant. Everyone attempts to accomplish the inferior through the dominant. By following first principles and proverbial logic (Te) i.e. literal proverbs, they accomplish being "good"(Fi). Though the elements look different they simply reverse the horse and carriage. An Fi will look at a business tycoon and blame them for the state of the poor. A Te realizes that simply feeling bad for the poor won't accomplish anything, because you can't take emotions to the bank (a common Te proverb) you need to actually DO something. Even if you don't FEEL for them, building a huge corporation and then donating your equity to charity is worth more than a single person volunteering their entire life. For this reason, even though still hated by a generally large amount of people, Bill Gates (textbook ENTJ according to typology forums) is more effective in donating ~$30 billion to build business around the globe for the poor and promoting philanthrocapitalism than an army of Mother Teresa's.

ENTJ pitifully trying to justify a future life of corporation building, puppy kicking, soul atoning.

Lenore Thomson demonstrates strongly the quintessential ST personality.

(Source)

Discuss! :happy:
 
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#2 ·
I have encountered some ITJs that use the psychologizing to put opponents down, protecting themselves behind the notion that others are idiots or typist. Also, the "selfishness" of ETJs are prevalent in many ETJs I know very well (incl. brother).

Te-types are very efficient, even when using the brain they use a very small, simplified, efficient loop. When you exclude a lot of holistic input, like feelings and harmony it is easier to make efficient decisions.

Fi is still sort of a mystery to me, since it is based on PERSONAL values and you cannot deduce them our anticipate them easily. From my experience, Fi-types are the "most emotionally intense" too, for good or bad. Myself, I have been called "too logical, psychopath, robot, too calm, damage from birth" etc. by Fi users that find my Zen troubling...
 
#4 ·
INFP here.

Fi is quite baffling to ENTPs, I think. Fi is probably a bit annoying, since you can't even "pick up" on it. Obviously, for a Fi-dom, whatever the nature of the feeling being currently expressed, whether it be extant or masked, is almost immediately perceptible.

ENTPs hate being slow on the uptake, and are usually resentful that something is passing by in front of them without them realising it. They pride themselves on being able to draw lots of things together, and having such a massive blindspot as Fi annoys them because they cannot draw upon it to add to, modify, or improve their concepts. If an ENTP says something blunt (and they do - frequently), they are usually baffled that someone might be offended. They then become annoyed as if they, as people, have no relation to what they've just said. Therefore, it appears unreasonable and "moody" of the other person to hold them to account for something they said off the cuff.

To say that Fi-doms are moody is reductive. If you are only noticing the present mood then are you missing the vast majority of real Fi, which takes place in the moments when you aren't looking. That is what it does: it is an introverted function. Fi is operating when other types (particularly extroverts) are bouncing around in conversation, talking over one another. Fi-doms are processing during this time.

We do not find yours - or anyone's - "Zen" troubling. What we find troubling is the dismissal of Fi's validity. This occurs frequently. It is, ultimately, to the interlocutor's failing. You will never escape Fi. You may think you are being efficient, or rational, or logical but, I tell you, one day everyone has to deal with their Fi.

If you're an ENTP, you need to deal with identifying what annoys you and why it annoys you. That way you will be more sympathetic to others, and you will attempt to check your "loudmouth with all the great ideas" mood. An ENTP who has learnt about Fi is the ENTP who says to himself "Hang on - I might not say this right now. If I do, everyone might think I'm an arsehole."
 
#3 · (Edited)
Wow, had to post on this one!

These article excerpts speak to me. In 2000, my Fi slowly started rolling in, and as it did, I became aware of my own likes and dislikes and my own values. Becoming a Christian correlated to my understanding that to be true to myself, living my values was paramount. But also, it came with a deep respect for individuality. Even though a few people didn't understand me, and in fact, even sought to undermine my personal and spiritual growth, I slowly began to seek new experiences and friendships that were based on my own values. I also started writing in earnest at that time.

However, as an extrovert, I was super-aware of the displeasure or disapproval of people who were important to me, so I often disregarded my own needs to make them 'comfortable.'

In 2008, my Fi kicked in bigtime when a sudden, sharp incident showed me that, for good or for evil, other people lived boldly by their own values every day, even to the point of devastating lives. I had spent 43 extroverted years being focused on others' goals, values, desires, needs and feelings, while feeling more and more lonely and less accomplished. And then add to that, a clear understanding that no matter what you put in, other people influence the outcomes. I felt like my efforts in life had been fruitless.

Reacting to assuage other's anger, taking counsel from well-meaning friends, backpedaling to try undue damage that others had created in my life, and finally, meeting everyone else where they were, had not helped them grow and it had not helped me because I was stuck. So the Fi questions: What do I believe? What do I want? What do I need? all tumbled through my mind day and night and I became very isolated considering them. This inner reflection has continued to this day and effected relationships to some extent, but I'm ok with that.

I have a conscious awareness and depth of understanding for people. Each person has his or her own drives, sins, worldview, etc, and has personal desires and growth needed, just as I do. We are each trying to get through life, hoping to find personal joys and to overcome obstacles and setbacks. I test as an INFP at times now and I can see why. My intuiton is stronger than ever and so is my desire to create artistically. I allow myself plenty of time in my inner world. I still bust out as an ENFP, because I like to entertain and lighten things up and I desire harmonious relationships but I care a lot less than I used to, whether people understand me.
 
#6 ·
As you both say, if the ENTP is not aware of his stumblings - do not understand - then I guess he is no asshole? Everyone has blind spots. My criteria of telling if someone is truly unsympathetic is if they do their mean stuff KNOWINGLY.... One should simply do the best with what they have got.

I think I can be blunt but also very empathetic. I did, and still do, have problems with what I like myself. I have worked on both Fi and Fe, and now I do not just take care of everyone around..... I WANT some stuff too, or else I can skip it.

My Fi is actually higher than my Fe in cognitive tests... I don't know if I am that blind as you say... It is more like I feel uneasy because you cannot logically anticipate their motifs or next action. If someone acts on the basis of rationality or morality (common) then it is an easier formula to calculate. With some Fi:era, especially unhealthy ones, you never know when something will blow up in your face. They do not seem to share this forgiving trait if there was no bad intentions... Instead they seem to think " you should know better". I am left with having many hypothesis´ but not knowing why/what/how beforehand... I have to go on experience to learn individual behaviors and thought patterns/values... I guess I am no true mindreader....:)
 
#7 ·
No, no, no, no. I'm not at all blaming the ENTP for his misunderstanding! I don't think that's what adasta was trying to say either. I forgive him. It's just that the Fe vs. Fi is definitely a roadbloack in that friendship, and until I understood it, it was pretty awful. Many of those words you listed that Fi accuses you of are words that went through my mind when dealing with him. It just took a lot to understand his actions. It was especially confusing because I think we can be on the same page with our Ne flowing together, but then something happens that definitely isn't.

Also, my ENTP can be one of the most deeply empathetic people ever, I come close to crying sometimes because of his caring. Fes can certainly reach a depth of empathy I cannot. I have to attempt to understand why I would feel that way through my own lenses. Sometimes I feel like a bad person because my 'empathy' comes from my values being violated in relation to what has been done to the other person, or from an appreciation that their own values have been violated. In addition, I've come to appreciate the bluntness of his kind and have tried to learn to be more straightforward with people.

I can see how Fi makes you uneasy. Like abasta said, ENTPs hate being slow on the uptake. Have you considered asking Fis about how they feel instead of attempting to anticipate their actions? Maybe once you get more of a sense of what the Fi's core values are, it will be less difficult to guess their reactions to things. It's pretty cause and effect once you know.

My ENTP seems to be able to handle a lot of people very well... but I manage to surprise him. And it's a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine that I've taken to purposefully befuddling him to some degree in non-consequential situations. I love his reactions, and then I often ask him questions afterward to discover how he interpreted things and such... it's just very fascinating to me. Of course, I do my best to explain myself to him as well and I think he's better able to understand where I'm coming from, though he still can't read me.
 
#13 ·
I definitely recognize that behavior, but I've always found it amusing more than anything. I usually laugh, and then say something strange in return. This is usually when I bring out my own game and tailor my reaction to befuddle them. ;) Maybe it's because I've known an ENTP for so long, I see right through it and know that the person is testing me.

Maybe I am a strange Fi that way? I am enneagram 5. But maybe it's just because two of my best friends are ENTP.

Either way, maybe you should just be straightforward and ask about their thoughts instead of trying to read them, as I noted earlier. It could end it a lot less heartbreak.
 
#14 ·
Many don't respond well to direct questions of a nature best suited at psychologists they already know.... Some don't know themselves how they tick.... and fewer still wants YOU to know how they tick. That is why we use this technique. If I asked you, you would just think "That is none of his f...ng business" or "Who does he think he is to ask that?" right?

Believe me, I am a bit older so it is a useful technique. And I do NOT come off as an asshole apart from when my Te is rampant (i ENTJ-mode). Many people mistake me for ENFP....(Fe, but anyway, I eem approachable... Everyone from massage therapist to stranger on train opens up to me).
 
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#15 ·
Hmm... so you're saying you would ask very personal questions? I think I know why an Fi would respond unpredictably to this action in particular.

The Fi would find the question an interesting consideration and it appeal to the Fi desire to understand the self more.

At the same time, the Fi is naturally private so they may be unwilling to share.

I think with an ENTP I knew well, I would answer the question honestly, then ask back, and compare the answers to discover more about both of us.

With an ENTP I didn't know, I would say something snarky and/or befuddling to undermine how he was trying to test me and figure out how I tick. Again, I see what the ENTP is attempting to do and I would definitely try to mess with his head and regain the upper hand in our interaction.

I like to be able to control what strangers know/understand about me. I like to manipulate how people see me in order to keep myself safe in vulnerable situations. But I wouldn't get angry or anything. I don't usually mind personal questions, I just choose whether I want to be myself with that person, and share a true answer, or I want to be private because I'd prefer not to be intimate.

If the ENTP's reaction to my nonsense impresses me I'll likely open up. But if the ENTP seems uninterested in knowing me, then I still enjoy the Ne-interaction, but I won't reveal my inner self so much unless it's relevant.

Even right now, you're trying to predict my behavior and read me, trying to prove you see how I tick. My natural instinct is to try and undermine that attempt, though I'm resisting it for the sake of understanding.
 
#16 ·
Thank you for sharing this but is it possible you could also entail how this affects types that do not normally have Fi as one of their four functions? I ask because I recognize the first description of Fi dom particularly well and I indeed value mercy over justice, but I'm Ti dom. I don't even "have" Fi, I have Fe.

I do however recognize myself a bit with the INFPs. Care to elaborate on this aspect of the types not being FPs or TJs?
 
#18 ·
Haha you ENTPs amuse me. That honestly sounds like fun to me, but it's not in my nature to do it. However, I think that you cannot be surprised when someone acts negatively to this once in awhile. Like I said, if you really want there to be no misunderstandings, just be straightforward! And maybe learn to live in a little ambiguity. If you impress an Fi, they will open up to you eventually.

Maybe if someone gets offended, you could backtrack, explain you just want to see how they react and understand them better. Any Fi would understand this, and maybe even forgive you and explain themselves.




What is your function order? Have you taken the keys 2 cognition test? I find it's the most reliable in terms of giving you different possible types and such.

I have a Ti-dom friend that appears to have Fi alot, but its really more that her deep logic(Ti) + deep empathy and understanding how others feel(Fe) result in concrete, noble, principals of interacting with others.

As for myself, I can appear to have Fe, but it's really seeing the different possibilities of others' and situations (Ne) + perception of how I would feel if I were in that situation (Fi) that result in Fe-like empathy. Put in a cynical view, it's feeling bad for myself if I were in that situation, thus I feel bad for them. I don't really have a true understanding of how they actually feel though. That's pretty difficult for me unless they explicitly explain everything. I don't have much in the way of other Fe characteristics, though.

Also, are you referring to the first proposed definition or the first quote? I'm not sure.
 
#17 ·
"Even right now, you're trying to predict my behavior and read me, trying to prove you see how I tick."
He he. I might.

But I wouldn't really ask personal questions. The thing is, to get THE SAME INFORMATION as you get when "shocking" you need to get close enough to ask many questions of some personal nature. This takes time. Thus it is much QUICKER to break the defenses and bored facade. Actually, it usually stirs things up for the better. Most people sort of live in bored anticipation of what will transpire. When something shocks them out of it, they may be thankful...
 
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#20 ·
It sounds to me like you're an INTP whose functions are able to imitate Fi through development, if you go by MBTI alone. Other theories say you can access all 8 functions and that you could have developed it somehow. I and my INTP friend are very similar, and when she's in feeling mode, there's little to distinguish us. However, she's still INTP, no doubt. It's interesting you score so lowly on Fe though. Hmm...

I think since you primarily seem to use Ti and Ne, you should go with that. The more inferior functions can get pretty muddled, I think.

Just as a note, that definition you chose I don't relate to. I much prefer the second definition. The first definition sounds a bit muddled with Fe, IMO.

Have you tried looking at this article and picking out which function pairs you primarily use:? There's a chart on the bottom of the page to figure out your type based on that.

http://personalitycafe.com/articles...ests-guide-understanding-function-theory.html
 
#28 ·
It sounds to me like you're an INTP whose functions are able to imitate Fi through development, if you go by MBTI alone. Other theories say you can access all 8 functions and that you could have developed it somehow. I and my INTP friend are very similar, and when she's in feeling mode, there's little to distinguish us. However, she's still INTP, no doubt. It's interesting you score so lowly on Fe though. Hmm...

I think since you primarily seem to use Ti and Ne, you should go with that. The more inferior functions can get pretty muddled, I think.

Just as a note, that definition you chose I don't relate to. I much prefer the second definition. The first definition sounds a bit muddled with Fe, IMO.

Have you tried looking at this article and picking out which function pairs you primarily use:? There's a chart on the bottom of the page to figure out your type based on that.

http://personalitycafe.com/articles...ests-guide-understanding-function-theory.html
Pretty sure I have three combinations I prefer:

NeTi (obviously)
NiTe
NeFi

and in that order.

Then there are other functions I like to use depending a bit on what I'm doing:
FiTe
SiFi (I get into SiFi loops very easily, especially when I listen to music)
NiTi
NiFi
SiTi

That I'm aware of. I've also lapsed a bit into SiFe lately but hardly enough for it to be relevant I think. I'm pretty oblivious when it comes to Se.

And I'm pretty sure that if I had taken the MBTI when I was in my teens I would've scored INFP because my entire life basically revolved around Fi back then. Out of the introverted functions, I think I developed Ti and Fi first. I appear to develop Ne in social interaction now which is very late considering my age.

With that said, I don't doubt I'm Ti dom because I become apathetic way too easily and I'm definitely interested in facts rather than values. I'm mostly curious what my Fi says about me really :tongue: Since it seems that my Fi is much stronger than what's normal among other INTPs. And yes, you can definitely see this as an attempt for Ti to understand Fi which of course is impossible :crying:
 
#30 ·
As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.
First, if there's anything wrong in my comprehension of this topic, I can openly stand to be corrected; and I'd like to know where I got it wrong.

This disturbs me. I am an INFJ, and I tend to seek the proverbial purity of my soul through the act of intimacy rather than veganism; I engage in it but only once I've subjected the person through a very rigorous amount of dialogue regarding ethics, morality, and personal resolve. "I would never have sex with someone who couldn't up hold the act in the same light as I, and in a way that doesn't compromise my ethics, and feelings regarding the act" is what I believe; In otherwords, I refuse to have one moment disturb my personal stance on the issue. I have rigid principles about how I want to engage in it with another. This may not have DIRECT external evidence/effect, but once it's shared with a person through dialogue it's either respect or misunderstood by others depending on their morality, and stance on the issue; some people just want it right now, and others prefer it to be under a more personally 'harmonic' situtation, that satisfies deeply held ethics, values, emotions and ideals.

I also do focus alot on super-self-control as it were because I believe a person should learn to master themselves in all situations to acheive a sense of inner control and reach a resolution with the least amount of resistence. This provides the person with enough 'detachment' to focus (in my case) my Ti function to arive at a more clear, and logical analysis of the data, and checking the scenario for any inconsistencies, or errors of fact. Also, I'm personally not fond of having my emotions exposed to everyone and being vulnerable to everyone's lack of persepctive, or bias against my emotions; this would make me defensive, and feel misunderstood. And more likely to keep to myself.

On the subject of doing one's duty, if no one did do their duty, than alot of areas of our country, no our WORLD would fall down. Look at the countless soldiers of the army, and navy, and air force who sacrificed their lives for duty; they do get a check for it, but you could get a check doing just about anything. Some people make it a personal choice to do their duty and uphold their priciples for the sake of what they believe in. If defending what you believe in is poinless, than consider me pointless. I'm searching endlessly and tirelessly to find something I can devote myself to, because living a life of immediate gradification is an endless loop that leads one to NOWHERE, except outward to the next fix; in essence, it's the trap that the addict is stuck in; stuck looking to patch up the original sin that broke them rather than focusing on going inward in an attempt at self-actualization.

Somethings in my opinion should be held higher than the immediate pacifaction of urges. These urges teach us no self-discipline or how to transmute them into socially correct behaviors; what happened if EVERYONE were to act on their deepest impulses to kill whoever irritated, or abused them? Well, I don't need to say what would happen, because they'red probably be no one alive to even inform.
 
#31 ·
It's an interesting concept for an OP and I think Fi is an interesting function. It's probably the hardest function I can think of to explain. The primary problem is the negativity in the descriptions of the tertiary and inferior functions. In addition to the negativity, I just don't think they're right. Even if the descriptions are to be accepted, they appear to assume the functions are static. As people grow and mature, they generally develop their tertiary for example. Also, I'm pretty sure Lenore Thompson is an Ni dom.
 
#32 ·
It's an interesting concept for an OP and I think Fi is an interesting function. It's probably the hardest function I can think of to explain. The primary problem is the negativity in the descriptions of the tertiary and inferior functions. In addition to the negativity, I just don't think they're right. Even if the descriptions are to be accepted, they appear to assume the functions are static. As people grow and mature, they generally develop their tertiary for example. Also, I'm pretty sure Lenore Thompson is an Ni dom.
Remember that the article mentioned this point: "Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Fi in ETJs, secondary-style Fi in IFPs, and so on--even inferior-style Fi in IFPs."

Most individuals are not sufficiently conscious of their tertiary and inferior functions, and thus these functions usually manifest in unhealthy, extreme, and destructive ways. But as the above quote indicates, it is possible to see healthy Fi in ENTJs, who use it as their inferior. It is possible to differentiate the inferior functions, but it is not a very common occurrence. These are not hard-and-fast rules indicating how each type must manifest a certain function; it is an observation of common patterns. Type development and behavior can vary from individual to individual.
 
#33 ·
@Adasta (and everyone else on the thread...)

I think the usual issue with ETPs and Fi is that Ti is used instead to find "values". Usually feelers can talk about things "illogically" and get what they mean from the feelings, but when what they've said is logically analysed it can be found to have lots of holes in it - but that doesn't matter from a feeler's point of view because they easily know what the person MEANT and that's all that counts.

I think the combination of Fi+Te has the same result as the combination of Ti+Fe. I know a very mature ENTP and they are very good at putting themselves into another person's shoes and understanding their point of view. Ti+Fe people do it by getting the other person's feelings and then thinking about how those feelings would make sense. Fi+Te people instantly understand the other person's point of view when they use Fi but Te allows them to deal with it appropriately (e.g. Fi alone might let an act of evil pass by because of too much sympathy, but Te would say they still deserve to be put to justice anyway). At least that's my point of view.
 
#34 ·
@Carmine Ermine

That sounds largely correct. Your exposition in the second paragraph makes a lot of sense, and I can see an ENTP acting this way if they allowed themselves the time to consider the different point of view. There is sometimes a tendancy to question someone very rapidly because of the pace of the ENTP's idea (e.g. "Why do you think that?", "Why did you do that and not this, which is the better option?", etc.)

In terms of Fi and Ti: Ti can be a bit irritating because it seems so needlessly fastidious. Ti-users force you to explain things which are readily apparent. What appears to be an argument full of holes is, as you say, actually based on what is meant. Yet, it's not only that. It's rather more that the meaning is felt so instantaneously that explaining it to a Thinker can, at times, be like talking to a child during their "Why?" phase. It just...is.

I imagine a similar feeling is felt by Thinkers when they talk to Fi-doms and think "Why didn't you just consider things more?"
 
#35 ·
There is sometimes a tendancy to question someone very rapidly because of the pace of the ENTP's idea (e.g. "Why do you think that?", "Why did you do that and not this, which is the better option?", etc.)
She still does that a lot, although it often feels a little patronising to me, like she already knows the answer. She probably does it to check that I would come to the same conclusion.

I imagine a similar feeling is felt by Thinkers when they talk to Fi-doms and think "Why didn't you just consider things more?"
I can see how it would seem ambiguous, and thinking doesn't like ambiguity with words. I've sometimes asked things like "so you mean this..." and the other person is like "yeah, duh!"

I guess feelers also detect a sort of ambiguity or "unsure-ness" when thinkers say something that would be very clear if you just looked at the words. That happens to me a lot. So it can work both ways.

So good communicators have to make sure they put across both the right words and the right feelings :)
 
#40 ·
This is helpful. I can see some of myself in this. The trouble is I still feel like I do Ti better than Fi because of the emotional component, and what looks like Fi in me could just as easily be Ti + Ni + Fe. So what is the objective truth? And does it matter? Me feeling connected to every living being on the planet and wanting to protect the earth I don't think is unique to Fi, and my sense of empathy is very different from every Fi description in a lot of ways.
 
#42 ·
Once I saw our past fraught with peril as we moved from being single celled into our current form as the diffracted global brain. I asked? Self godfrom whence comes this thing called love.

The oxytocin serotonin drug cocktail came from the billions of deaths of our ancestral forbearers, and that was when we realized the precious pain of love. This precious emotion born of sorrow and strife is the answer to finding self as universe.

As we move forward on the path of infinite sentience God will require more sacrifice before he/we/she/it learns its depths
 
#45 · (Edited)
I can't say I relate much to this. At all. I can't recall any time in my life I exactly put down an opponent with "psychologizing" (maybe jokingly, but I'm pretty sure they weren't my opponents ever - I just don't think that's a smart idea at all, period). Also, I have never met animal abuser inferior Fi types (my rear, I've met some questionable and shady dominant Fi types (it's rare, but it happens) - not that it's type-related, but that's just it - I don't think I have any examples of people who quite fit the examples - so much is going to depend on so many other factors of a person's conditioning and upbringing). I mean, Lenore's analysis is fine, but the examples are where this stuff takes on something too...conditional and real to be a cognitive process, I think. Also, I thought the "troglodite" stuff was falling into common inferior Se projections from Naomi Quenk's book (I've said that to an Se dom before). I do have a great love for animals (and I mean really, wtf is an animal's soul? Their very convincing human qualities? Frankly, I love them for who they are - I don't care about their "humanness" - I think exactly where they're lovable is where they're not like real humans (if they embody some human ideal, so be it, but that doesn't make them realistic representations of humans necessarily) - I really can't stand how she makes the tert. and inferior Fi types into legitimate hypocrites (and like they don't have values, but sort of fake it - that couldn't be farther from the truth) - my rear, I've known higher Fi types who were run-of-the-mill hypocrites (e.g. some of those people who claim to "love humanity, but hate individuals," which gives them an excuse to "be themselves" - once again, a controversial standpoint I've seen abused by some dominant Fi types I know to act like overly opinionated snots - not that this is trendworthy, but why discount experiences for trends - what does it really matter). I'm pretty sure I've known plenty of ENFPs who support the death penalty (after all, couldn't someone find a reason that it is "merciful?" It seems like many Fi types I know think they have). From a Jungian standpoint, I think she over-differentiates the function per type - that's understandable, because she's trying to examine it from the MBTI construct, but that's not to say they're all not going to have stuff in common in the Fi department as well (people tend to take "function order" too literally around here and elsewhere to the point that the functions suddenly become different on different "levels" (whatever can really be concretized as "levels" anyhow). It's just specific conditions I think she's highlighting of perhaps the isolated activity of only THAT function's rationalization on its own in the types in episodic spurts, which surely isn't inaccurate, but I think her examples sort of underestimate the function a bit in the tert./inferior Fi types, while it might be a bit over-personified in the upper ones (common tendency for MBTI to make functions too "characteristic" of the individual's world-views). Who's to say whether or not Fi will prompt someone to ethical action (that's another one of those controversial, untested MBTI ideas) - let alone, I think it's actually Jung who paints the Te dominants as the stereotypical "humanitarians," which is really food for thought for those who are overly fixated on MBTI stereotypes (I mean, I kind of think Jung's view makes sense in the fact that Te action is essentially aimed toward implementing one's felt ideals in outer-world accomplishments, so what's to stop these types, other than some inferior episode pulling them away from action?). Don't get me wrong - I think Lenore's article is well-written overall (she really does have some of the best type stuff out there that avoids controversy like 95% of the time or better, in spite of her "controversial" insights), but like most ideas in MBTI that get promoted through it, it's not without controversy. I actually like how @simulatedworld covers Fi in his type descriptions at Personality Nation better, I think - his INTJ Fi description is a little much though.
 
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#46 ·
My mother and stepfather are ESTJs, their inferior functions being Fi, and I'm an INFP, so my dominant function is Fi.
I don't mean to complain, but it's frustrating to constantly be around someone who doesn't even attempt to understand or show any sign of caring about the way you operate. If she wasn't my mother and we didn't have major relationship problems, then I wouldn't really care if she didn't know about the way I think or my point of view, but we cannot fix the problem until we understand eachother and adapt. I've put mounds of energy and effort into figuring out her ESTJ point of view and trying to see the other side of the question, and I spend a lot of time bending over backwards to please her and forgetting my prefrences so that I can suit hers.
Back to the Fi thing. What's so vexing is that as hard as I work to understand her dominant Te, she doesn't lift a finger with me. And I wouldn't care if everything was harmonious, but it's not and she doesn't try to understand. I've never had a conversation with her about it, I'm too scared and too shy, but the few times I've started to initiate one, she tears down my defenses like the walls of a child's cardboard castle.
What happens is like this: On rare occasions, when she asks me how I'm doing or I feel the need to tell her about an event, I'll try to explain an emotion and her understanding of it will be wrong, but when I tell her that it's deeper or more vivid, she doesn't understand and thinks I'm being overdramatic or exaggerating or that I'm wrong. And I can admit being wrong about a lot of things, but one thing that everyone can judge for themselves is how something makes them feel. Maybe I do overreact, I am 13, after all, but even if I'm misjudging the event, my feelings are my feelings, right? She's just continually told me that I don't know what I'm feeling, and it's driving me crazy.
I just don't know how to make her understand dominant Fi. And she doesn't like the whole typology thing in the first place, so I have no idea what to do..
 
#47 ·
I had always wondered how some people seemed to lack a sense of right and wrong. How could this be? So detached and 'cold.' Seemingly having no clear moral structure. Now I know that isn't really the case which is pretty cool to know why.

Whenever something happens infront of me, it is always deemed right or wrong. Instantly. There's almost no second thought about why or why not, it just is. It's hard to ignore and if I do, it will keep persisting. Never giving up. Before I knew of 'types' I had never really given a thought about why I have it like this. I thought surely everyone ought to have this.

It directs everything I do in life. Every step I take.

If I see an animal hunting and eating another I will go 'This is wrong!' I know survival and stuff but it is wrong still. Destruction of any form of life or potential life is wrong to me.

Yet the hypocricy is that I eat meat, everyday. And enjoy it. Heck, right now 'feeling' is doing it again. Telling me 'Please consider to become a vegan out of respect for all living life's right.' But the chicken is so delicious! 'Your stomach over a LIFE?!' :( Damnit. You are completely right...

Ofcourse T tells 'But it's already dead when you buy it...' Yes, but it wouldn't if none ate meat or less would be killed if more strived such purpose. Thus me being a vegan is living that cause. 'Good choice' <--- See? Right and wrong all over the place.
'Most likely you'd be serving a hopeless cause with the population growing ever so fast, people will only INCEASE meat production and slaughter'
I geuss so... 'YOU'd be serving a good cause no matter what. Whatever people do is up to them, but even if at the end, only one was spared because of you, it was all worth it' True

Just wanted to show the inner machinery of a 'feeling' person.
 
#49 ·
Fi allows me to feel almost the exact same emotion someone else is feeling. If I see someone sad and about to cry, I FEEL it and it will make me cry and make me sad. I feel transparent sometimes. I feel like I soak up emotions and let it drain out within me. It is very easy for me to know how I feel about things and it is also easy for me to know what someone else's feeling in the inside. I feel like I am stepping into someone's soul. It is in great in terms of me getting to understand people easily, connect with them and I grow to love things very quickly and strongly. However the bad thing is that it can torment you as it can make you very sensitive. Sometimes I have to avoid watching certain movies and things in order to keep my heart from breaking a million times per second.
 
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#51 ·
All this time I thought my ENTP mother was just really cold , selfish, arrogant, oblivious, and ignoring my reactions and habits, too lazy to get to know the true me, even when I was explaining it to her... I guess it's possible she really just has never noticed them or their patterns, and even more probable that she doesn't know they exist to this extent discussed on here.

ISFP perspective for XNTPs: many of you have said, "It didn't go as I predicted! What do I do? What did I do? What should I do?" Sometimes, with Fi doms, prediction of them is what they may take the most offense at. What would really make them relax is knowing you have your guard down, not up. If they sense any strategy at all, they will naturally want to assume "controlling person", because more often than not, it's true.

Truth is, Fi doms are bare naked in a windy world, they feel things to the bone. The last thing they want in a person is someone who makes them feel even more vulnerable by completely understanding and estimating and predicting them more than has been allowed.

Fi doms can get tired of this, too, but it's more effective if a person leaves himself open bare rather than tries to further bare the Fi dom. Get bare like the Fi dom, and they will understand you, empathize with you, but try to bare the Fi dom, and they will panic and run for cover in any way they can. Do yourself what you want them to do, without directly asking for it in return (that will be obvious to them as it is) because that is how they work. They are reflexive. If they feel your control too much, sometimes even if well-intentioned, then they will respond with some form of control. If they see (good) vulnerability, they will be far more likely to reflect that, and then you can get somewhere.

However, the laying yourself bare and vulnerable can be almost as bad as controlling, too, if you have rotten motives or over-do it. Because we will see them, often enough or eventually, and guess what? Feel controlled.

In other words, XNTPs seem not to see the jungle through all the trees. :) You want to figure us out to then spend something you've imagined is possible: this perfect, rationalized time together and we're like... "AND??? Then what?" We prefer you to like us anyway, at times irrationally (and I apologize for trying NT patience), and then reveal ourselves over time, keep things fresh and full of surprise and saving affection for the ripest times for the other person's sake tho' they don't know it yet, as opposed to sprinkling it like a bucket of cheap confetti (and unfortunately, this slow, rewarding process can backfire half the time, and be our greatest talent the other half, so it is indispensable). It gives us something to do, in a sense. People fascinate us, they are extremely complex and if we could have our way at times, we'd know everything about them, slowly, day by day (who's controlling now? haha :p)... but the truth is, meanwhile, we don't give too much more than we can take, for fear of imbalance of power. Equal footing is so essential in our relationships. Because if you who are in relationship to us are imprudently in charge of us, then you conceivably might take away our power to study or enjoyment of studying you to serve you or effect you and thus obstruct our half of the relationship, stop up that which we are able to give into it and delight to do so; and sadly, with the relationship being that which you were trying to accomplish in the first place through your controlling! So I hope that explains why overtly domineering tactics ultimately, long-term, can typically fail with us. It's not because we are weak, it's because we are strong enough to detach from something we love if it is bad for us. ( I don't know about INFPs on that one, though, they can stay really attached for some reason.)


Overall, the greatest key is to recall that Fi by nature, essentially, is unpredictable and will remain that way (personally, I feel that if I wanted to be predicted, I would either be an Extrovert or boring as a weathervane). Once you have accepted that, you can move on. Now, instead of only taking notes when your Fi dom reacts a certain way, so you can plan to do the right thing next time, remember that you must also do the unthinkable. Go somewhere you have no idea about (but that isn't toooo far beyond the edge of the forest). Go gently, of course, but be like a child, wondering, aimless. This will number one, evoke compassion in the Fi dom, and two, this will be taken as a sign of pure, uncalculated interest, i.e. love. Free love. The only love worth having.

That is what I would say to do, anyway.

Maybe it's just me, but I think IXFPs can at times be secretly very attracted to people who want nothing to do with them, because this implies a person who wouldn't be domineering or controlling of the IXFP's emotions (as that person wouldn't care about the emotions of someone they wish to avoid)... but obviously, that is all just stupid and would be ridiculous in reality. But this also would explain some clingy, desperate behavior when they feel someone is utterly done with them. At last they are free! Feel free! At last they can love you! But at that same moment you are now gone.

Pathetic human nature. haha
 
#52 ·
why is understanding someone taken the same as controlling them?

I had a relationship with an INFP recently. I thought we had a connection, because I often knew exactly what she was thinking, knew how she operated. She actually seemed to appreciate it. I even read in INFP guides that they appreciate being understood. But I had no desire to control her. She is her own person, I do not make decisions for her. INTPs value their own independence a lot, we tend to assume others do too, and treat them accordingly.
 
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